Considering Not Going Back To Improv
As the vaccine rollouts happen around the world, announcements are beginning to be made about when theatres might be able to open later in the year.
This episode you’re going to hear from improvisers who, after a year of doing no live performance, have been considering not going back to the art form.
CONTENT WARNING:
This episode features conversations about grief and suicidal thoughts.
If you are impacted by these topics or need help, please follow these links. There are people and organisations who can help you.
https://unitedgmh.org/mental-health-support
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_suicide_crisis_lines
This show features:
Brendan Duffy
Hear Brendan on The James Bond A-Z podcast: https://podfollow.com/jamesbondatoz/
Hellena Jang
Follow Hellena on social media to find out about classes:
Facebook: Hellena Jang
Instagram: hellena_jang
Videos(YouTube) : https://www.youtube.com/user/dkdltm80
Korean website: http://hellenajang.com
Hugh Clark
Follow Hugh on Twitter @Hugh_what_where
Hugh is in Stealing The Show - follow them at @Showtheft on all platforms
MATES: The Improvised '90s Sitcom is @matesimprov on Facebook and Twitter
Space Base Mars podcast is @spacebasemars on all platforms, listen at https://pod.link/spacebasemars
Susan Messing
Find Susan on Twitter at @MessingSusan
Episode transcript:
This… is the Improv Chronicle podcast. I'm Lloydie.
Lloydie James Lloyd: It's Tuesday, 9th, March 2021. And as the vaccine rollouts happen across the world, announcements are beginning to be made about when theatres might be able to open later in the year.
Some people are responding with excitement, booking shows, but others, well, others have had time to reflect during the pandemic and some have thought about leaving improv behind.
Some of today's guests thought about it for a while before deciding if improv had a future in their lives. Others are still deciding. All of them have been incredibly honest.
Before we go on with today's episode, a content warning: As we go through these candid interviews, some guests talk about grief and one talks about suicidal thoughts. Please choose to listen to something else if you feel the content of this episode might not be for you right now.
And if you are struggling at the moment or are in any way impacted from what you hear in today's episode, there are links to some useful resources in the show notes.
This episode started on a walk. The only thing we're allowed to do with another human being in the UK outside our homes at the moment is exercise. So, I've been increasing my step count with different friends on different walks.
Like the audio nerd I am, I always have a mic handy. So, when one of my friends said he thought about quitting improv, I asked if we could have a chat for the podcast.
Brendan Duffy: Hi, I'm Brendan Duffy. I'm an improviser from Nottingham and I'm one fifth of Denise's Fiftieth.
Lloydie: And it's true to say that you're wondering whether you want to go back to improv or not.
Brendan: Yeah, I mean, it's been such a long time now. I think it's 12 months since I last performed on stage. And during this time, I've just thought whether or not I will make a return.
Lloydie: And you've not taken part in any online improv at all.
Brendan: No. For me, the whole online thing didn't really resonate. It didn't give me what I love about improv. So, I didn't fancy going for it.
Lloydie: So, what did improv give you, pre-pandemic?
Brendan: I guess, a real confidence booster. It gave me an outlet to vent sort of anything, really, and spend time with friends and people I care about.
Lloydie: And you're thinking of giving that up?
Brendan: Totally unsure at the minute. I think it's something I really have to consider what I want from improv moving forward. I've replaced certain elements of what I got out of improv with other things. I've started a podcast, I've been running. And yeah, I'm just unsure of what I need to get from it once we go back to normal life.
Lloydie: So, for you, it's been such a long gap – best part of a year – and you're now kind of getting fulfilment elsewhere. Is there anything that entices you, anything that is making you think, “Well, maybe”?
Brendan: Well, I would class myself as a confidence performer. So, I think it depends. I want to get the confidence back and get on that stage. There's nothing quite like the feeling of being on stage and engaging with an audience and giving them something. And I think that's the one thing that I can't replace with the other activities that I've taken on.
Lloydie: Would you say it's given you a new perspective on improv, though?
Brendan: Absolutely. I think moving forward, I'm definitely not going to be doing things that I don't necessarily want to do and that don't interest me. I need to be doing it mostly firstly for me and then the rest comes with it.
Do I want to dedicate three or four nights of the week to improv if I'm not getting what I want to get out of it?
Lloydie: I really hope Brendan does improvise again. It seems like it's not a given at the moment, but I'm hopeful he will, because quite selfishly, I love watching him on stage.
After talking to Brendan, I put out a call for improvisors who'd been thinking of quitting and I had more messages than I thought I was going to, I had a message from Seoul in Korea from someone I've spoken to before on this podcast. And it surprised me because this person was one of the most enthusiastic evangelists for our art form that I've ever spoken to.
Hellena Jang: Hi, everyone. I am Hellena Jang from Seoul, South Korea, and I've been doing improv for 10 years. And I'm a teacher, an instructor and performer for the Improv. And I founded Improv school in Korea.
Lloydie: You said to me that during the pandemic you had thought about not going back to improv when things return to normal. Why is that?
Hellena: I was a full-time improviser during six years. And my main income was the business workshop through improv; like team building, leadership and communication with improv for the big I.T. companies. And that was my main income. I had also personal classes and also general classes for the adults and kids, but that was a very small income.
Because of Covid-19, I couldn't make any agency workshop and I had to make money. So, I did a part-time job; like teaching, facilitation skills and online classes, but not improv.
At the time, I seriously thought, “Do I have to keep doing improv or do I have to get a different job?”
Lloydie: And were there certain like experiences or emotions or feelings that you didn't get that you want back?
Hellena: It was terrible. It was awful. I almost thought about – maybe too much, but obviously, because it's true – I thought about suicide. Because that was so awful, I was so desperate and frustrated because I wanted to do improv and I wanted to go back to improv, but I couldn't. And I did another job which I didn't want.
And also, without improv, I felt like it's like dead inside. Because improv was very important and it was my everything.
Lloydie: You were quite clearly in a very difficult place. You are now talking to me months after this. How have you been able to turn that around?
Hellena: Actually, I made money last year. So, I'm a little bit stable right now. And also, I started online improv and also my improv classes. And I could make a little money. That's also one reason.
And also, the biggest reason is actually my husband supporting me a lot. So, my husband is making money right now. Because of that, I can focus on this improv.
Lloydie: Helena's honesty was incredible. We spoke about what I'd include from her conversation. And she hoped that by talking honestly about how she'd felt, the others might not feel quite as alone.
Another message I got for this podcast was from a UK-based improviser who once again was a huge advocate for improv. So, I was shocked when he said he thought about quitting.
Hugh Clark: Hi, I'm Hugh. I'm an improviser with Stealing The Show, the improvised heist comedy; with MATES Improv, the improvised sitcom; and now with Space Base Mars, the improvised sitcom podcast from the surface of Mars. I'm having to piece together the timeline.
But I think about Lock Down 2, I realized, “Oh, I don't miss it.” Which was a shock; an absolute shock. Like, I was relieved. I was relieved not to have to go back to improv. And I piece that together from – So, we had seen in the show, we’d just started planning for our summer festivals, we had a huge amount, but that MATES Improv was all kicking off again, festivals, Edinburgh, Brighton, and just a huge amount of planning for the rest of my year.
And all of a sudden, rather than saying, “Oh, I'm going to miss out on all of this”, my body was telling me, “You don't have to worry about any of this anymore.” And that was really nice.
And I think the problem, the inherent problem, there wasn't that I didn't like improv or I didn't enjoy being a part of these things, it was that my relationship to improv before that point wasn't at a healthy, balanced level. And so, all of a sudden, it went away; it forced me to reassess the relationship.
And all of a sudden, I have more time with my partner, I'm being a better person to live with, I'm being better about chores and things. And generally, I'm more relaxed. And I was having a nice time.
And like, don't get me wrong, I'm incredibly lucky as things go, in terms of how the pandemic has had an effect on my life. I'm super lucky and I will count those blessings every day.
But, yeah, there was there was a moment where I was like, “Oh, something's clearly wrong here. And maybe the wrong thing is improv. And maybe the answer is no more improv.”
And I sat down for quite a long time, I think through Lockdown 2, I was thinking about – I think it was Lockdown 2 – I was thinking about what else I could do with my time. I started to think about how I could come out of it and do other things. I picked up my guitar again. I booked some singing lessons. I was thinking about – like I don't want to say sketch – I think sketch in stand up very briefly crossed my mind, but they're just not for me.
The other thing that compounded it was the idea of going to doing improv on Zoom, just seemed for me, at least, just I could not stand the idea of trying to do improv over Zoom.
As an improviser, for me, it's all about a connection with the audience. And it's such a fundamental part of the experience for me is the fact that it's an audience connection. And so, being a performer, the idea of trying to get that connection through Zoom just seemed so prohibitive.
And then on top of that, I can't imagine – I'm a person who likes improv and the idea of going and watching a show on Zoom, after having had a day of meetings, ooh.
I don't want to put down people who are obviously championing the form over live shows through the Internet. At the moment, by all accounts, it sounds like people are really achieving great things with it, but it just doesn't appeal to me at all.
And so, when that felt like, at the time, my only option for getting back into it, it felt like the doors were closed to me. I haven't really spoken about this out loud, really.
There was a point at which I had a chat with some of the improvisers from Stealing The Show and sort of said, “How is everyone doing without improv?” And a few people were like, “I'm glad for the break. I'm glad to have the time off.” And I was like, “Yeah, me too.”
And I think obviously that speaks to the relationship we had with like the build up to festivals and things.
But other than that, I haven't really said out loud to anyone that I was thinking of stopping. I didn't necessarily feel alone, but there were moments where I was like just seeing, you know, like we've all got to pivot to Zoom shows, and I was thinking, “Do we though? Is anyone else thinking that maybe we’re just not for a little bit or at all?”
Lloydie: And how do you feel about saying it out loud now?
Hugh: I'm a little concerned, actually. I really hope that other people hear the fact that I've thought about it and go, “Ooh, okay, right. Other people are thinking about it too.”
Lloydie: The final person I spoke to for this episode is a name that has been synonymous with improv for decades – literally one of the world's most recognizable improv names – responded to my open call for contributors to say, yes, she'd considered not coming back to the stage.
Susan Messing: My name is Susan Messing and I guess that I am a comedy doula. Is that a good way to do it? I guess you'd have to tell me what I am to you and then I guess I would know what I am.
Lloydie: At this point in the conversation, we have a back and forth, telling each other that we think each other is a good person. I'm going to spare you that.
Susan did, however, want to make it clear that she's discovering how she feels about all this. This isn't her thesis. She's not sure of her shit, but she's talking it through in conversation.
So, I asked Susan, where was she at when she started questioning if she'd stay improvising after the pandemic?
Susan: Ooh, you know, I don't know if people – if it's a sudden thing. I think certainly, it's an international pandemic. And I would hope that that would be a fine time for people to question everything that they're doing in their lives, right?
But one thing that's kind of interesting that I had read was that people in a lifetime go through five-plus careers or something like that, five-plus vacations, and that it's not an anomaly to do that. And I've only had one career in my life. And being an improviser is an anomaly. But to say that that's what my life is as being an improviser, that's still usually kind of a side thing that people do. So, the fact that that's what I do for a living is already weird.
And that there's so many other applications for improv, that it doesn't have to be the be-all and the end-all. But during this time, I have been grieving a very complicated grief – as I shared with you earlier; that was not recorded – for my husband's death. He died April 8th of last year, 2020, and it's coming up to a year.
And while I was going through that, it makes you certainly question everything you've ever done and anything that you will do; where you have to quietly say to yourself, “What do I want?” Which is never been my life. It's always, I mean, I've never wanted to be kicked off stage. So, you set the bar real low, right?
And I did. I set the bar super low and literally took my career in the way that may be an improviser would declare a scene, which is I can't wait to discover what we discover along the way. And that's kind of the way I was lucky enough to go through my life, is to say, “Oh, this led to me watching your shit, which led me to teaching this shit, led to me directing or whatever the hell it is that day” or “Being brave enough to go out on my own”, because that feels weird. Because I come from sort of a cult environment where going off and doing your own thing was weird.
But as time has changed and this world has changed, and then all of a sudden, you get an international pandemic, and then all of a sudden – not all of a sudden, but people finally, people who have felt very marginalized in improv and in the world finally feel brave enough to speak up because everything is already burnt to the ground anyway. I mean, Chicago was the epicentre for this stuff and it's burnt to the ground.
So, if you can come from anywhere and run improv, because it's all on the Zoom format, you're saying, “So, why do I have to be here?” and “What do I need to do?”
You know, I'm taking care of my daughter; that's my primary focus always. I am teaching. I didn't jump on board, like my friend Rachel Mason, who just went, boom, last March and went on. I was still taking care of my husband who was dying. So, I kind of slowly put my feet back in the game in terms of Zoom classes and this and that. And I'll teach a couple classes in China. Here's one in Singapore. Here's one in England. Here's one in Denver. But because I don't have to be here and because I don't have to do what I'm doing, it simply made me question it.
I still love improv. I think we're all going to be so grateful when we can actually touch each other. That's going to be like this {indistinct 18:57} crazy. And that's without a mask. I mean, I've hugged my daughter and my friend, Christopher, and Bob. Since my husband's died, I've had three people. My mom is coming to visit March 23rd and I haven't seen her since November of ‘19. She couldn't help me when my husband died.
Do you know what I mean? Like these are the kind of basic elements that were in systems that were normally in place that no longer exist. So, when it no longer exists, you can look at a destroyed landscape and say, “Oh my God, what the fuck do we do now?” or you can see it as, you know, when the forest burns down, then you've put some nice ash into the ground and now the new trees have more space.
So, I look at it as not a frightening possibility of that the status quo is gone. I see it as an opportunity for all of us to evolve.
Lloydie: I have kind of one question after hearing all of that.
Susan: Yeah.
Lloydie: And that is, are you going to get back on a stage?
Susan: Oh, I think I will. But like for example, like I've told you, the idea of one-person shows has never been or me-first-person as myself has never been interesting to me, in which case, it should not be interesting to anybody else as well. As a matter of fact, me being on stage as myself is disturbing to me oftentimes. Like if you watch me ever do an intro to my show, you know, those are the most wildly uncomfortable moments. I can't wait to just kind of jump into the worlds.
But I think I am working for the next two years or whatever, primarily on figuring out some uncomfortable truths and sharing them in order to save people some time. That's at the very least. So, I know I will be – My writing is coming up. And it's a solitary thing. So, during a solitary time, what a great use of your time. But yes, I will be on stage, but I will also improvise.
Lloydie: That was news I was glad to hear. Now don't get me wrong, again, it’s purely selfish because I love watching Susan on stage. But Susan genuinely believes in time away.
Susan: You know, when I say things like, “You know what? Take some time off. I guarantee you when you come back, you'll just naturally be better. You will naturally be better.”
Remember how much time you, like, put 100 percent into your improv and you felt like you were like tied up in knots, only to come back later on and discover, “Why is this easy now?” It's because you relaxed your crack and enjoyed the ride instead of worried about fucking it up.
So, I guess I will stay in this community to hopefully be a voice of reason. To say, “Maybe not take it so seriously. To remind yourself that you started this because it was joyful.”
And maybe I'm saying this to you right now to remind myself of that as well, which is getting me a little teary.
Next time… on The Improv Chronicle Podcast.
As we continue talking about the move towards getting back to improv in real life, what will happen to online improv? To begin with, it was a stop gap for most, but one year in, it's fostered an international community that isn't going to go away.
The Improv Chronicle podcast is produced and hosted by me Lloydie James Lloyd. Subscribe and rate on your favourite podcast app. It makes a huge difference.
And find out more about previous episodes, including transcripts and our website improvchronicle.com