Imposter Syndrome
Any art form is subjective and can lead practitioners to question themselves, but how do experienced improvisers and improv teachers deal with the phenomenon of imposter syndrome?
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This episode features:
Rhiannon Vivian: https://rhiannonvivian.com/about/
Sunny Dhap’s team Jumprov: https://jumprov.com
Ryan Miller: https://www.ryanmillar.com
Episode Transcript:
This is the Improv Chronicle Podcast. I'm Lloydie.
Lloydie Lloyd: Any art form is subjective, and it can lead to practitioners questioning themselves. But how do experienced improvisers and improv teachers deal with the phenomenon of imposter syndrome?
My 101-teacher emailed me and said, “It's improv. We're all impostors when you think about it.” And I guess he's right.
Even so, the feeling that you're about to get found out and that maybe you shouldn't really be in the job of performing or teaching improv is still often a feeling or a voice that improvisers get in their heads.
I wanted to talk to some experienced voices in improv. And here, if they ever suffer from the impostor syndrome and if so, how they deal with it.
My first port of call was a friend who I've been lucky enough to teach classes in corporates with and who has such a great way with people.
Rhiannon Vivian: Hello.
Lloydie: Hello.
Rhi: Hello. How are you?
Lloydie: Oh, great. How are you?
Rhi: I'm all right, thanks.
Lloydie: Rhiannon Vivian is an improviser from the UK based in London. She plays with a Mayday's, Dreamweaver Quartet and Bumper Blyton and she performs all around the world. I mean, she can't possibly get imposter syndrome.
Rhi: I do. Yes, I get it a lot. I get imposter syndrome a lot. I haven't really looked up exactly what it means, but I feel very much – Yeah, I feel that’s very much a part of me. And I used to think it was because maybe I am more introverted and more – I tend to think and overthink and rethink situations.
I think a lot about what I've said, if it's teaching in class. I think a lot about how I've done in a show, which is actually not really the vibe of improv, is it? Because it's a very much a collective event. And yet we're such fallible humans. And as much as we all have an ego, which is a good thing because it means, you know, we get up early in the morning and brush your hair. But it can go into the over rumination of things.
And for me, it's something I would do even in life. I mean, I could – I, even now, if I have like a dark moment or ruminate a conversation 10, 20 years ago.
Lloydie: I'm glad it's not just me.
Rhi: It's really tiring. Yeah.
Lloydie: So, I mean, how does it manifest itself? How do you know or it's like, “Oh, here we go”? Is it just kind of like replaying thoughts or conversations in your head or how does it work for you?
Rhi: I think, unfortunately and then in a very ugly way, it manifests itself in comparison or by comparison initially; like I tend to think of all the people that I admire or I think are good at what they do or who I might have stolen some teaching; not games, but kind of styles and things from. And I kind of think, “Well, they are good. So, what am I doing? And they still teach. So, what am I doing?”
It's a comparative thing and I don't know – I think that's, again, normal, but it is tiring. But I also think that it's normal within degrees of normal. I think it's a sliding scale from a healthy comparison to irritating comparison to really unhealthy to the point where it might hamper what you do because you're worried you're not good enough.
Lloydie: Sunny Dhap is the founder of Underperformer with John Jumprov in Birmingham in the UK. I remember one of my teams being on the same night as them at a festival a few years ago, and the energy and enthusiasm the whole team had when they went on stage was hugely infectious. They all seemed like they absolutely belonged there on stage. So, in my head, I'm thinking they can't possibly suffer from imposter syndrome.
Sunny Dhap: Of course, we do. I mean, we’re human. Everyone gets it. But it's that thing where, okay, we rehearse, we practice, we have that pep talk before you go on stage is {indistinct 4:23} “Look, we earned the right to be here. And we are here and people want to see us.”
And it's about saying to yourself and saying that you deserve to belong here and you've earned your right to belong here.
And I think that, for us, was a massive thing in Jumprov where our stuff was tested with audiences that had never seen impov before. And it was tested with people – I brought people together who had never done it before and they did have that. They did have that, “Oh, are we doing this right?” And I said, “Don't care about doing it right. It's are you doing it your way. You know, we're following an old description of the game that sets the “rules” and just do it your way and you are worthy.”
And that's what it was. So, you know, fuck imposter syndrome.
Lloydie: Oh no, I'm on board with that. And I am someone who has suffered with it a lot, both as a teacher and a performer. I'm constantly like, “Oh, am I good. Am I the crap on in the group? Maybe I shouldn't be here.” Like often I'll think that and I have to really have a word with myself.
How do you get past – aside from ‘fuck imposter syndrome’, how do you actually push past it when you feel it creeping in?
Sunny: Yeah, it absolutely creeps in, because obviously, I work as an actor as well and you do feel shit. You do sometimes you're like, “Oh, my God, am I here because – Am I here – Obviously, for those who don’t know; I'm a British-Asian background. So, it's always like, “I'm I here for the diversity hire? Am I here for any other reason?”
But then you realise that you have to have that prep talk within yourself because, we always have our inner critics, but I don't think we always have our inner coach; the person who speaks nice and gentle things within our own voice, that tells us good things about ourselves.
And I think the inner critic and the imposter would live within us, that nil voice, it needs to be talked to and silenced. And it can only come from a good place within yourself.
And when you do get that, you do end up having to fight it as well. You have to say that, “You know what? I know what I'm doing.”
And I think the thing as well is, especially with comedy and with any art as well, you have to – Especially with art, you have to do your thing and know that, yeah, what you're doing is good and that's your flavour and that's your style. You know, it's always a thing where you think, “Oh, did I just perform really good on stage?” or “Have I done a really good show? And you don't be walking around looking or glum, waiting for someone to give you the validation to say, “Hey, I really enjoyed what you done.”
Just to do your thing and just go up there and smile. And then the people generally would come up and say to you, “I really liked what you did”, if they really liked it. If they didn't, then you can go home and cry over that in your bed and think, “Nobody said anything good about me.”
But I think it's fine. I think, for some reason, when it comes to, for example, like improv and it's just thoughts and imposter syndrome; it's always there and it's always real. But I think, it's that thing where, you know, I don't want to generalise about actors and, you know, performers and artists, we do crave that validation. We want that people to recognise that, you know, because we put so much into it; do people love what we do? And do people get what we do? And, you know, yeah, we turn a rant.
Lloydie: It might have been a rant, but it was gloriously right, at least for me. Of course, we want the validation of people liking our work. We're there to entertain after all.
For me, imposter syndrome can be a stressful thing. It's one of those nagging feelings or nagging voices you get in your head that you're just not good enough for the work that you do.
And when I was thinking about this episode, I walk past my bookcase and my eyes fixed on Take It Easy, which is a book by Amsterdam-based improviser Ryan Miller. The whole book's vibe is about getting more out of improv by doing less.
Ryan Miller: I mean, I think – Yeah, firstly, I think everybody deals with imposter syndrome and I certainly count myself among those people. Yeah, I mean, I've definitely – I mean, it's interesting talking about my book because, yeah, there is a through line or I think there are parts that I touch on or touched on about like, “Yeah, it's okay. Just take it easy. Just do what you want and be a good scene partner. And don't worry about judging yourself or being critical.”
And then there's the other through line that is like, “Who the fuck am I to write a book about improv?” You know what I mean?
And during the writing and the whole process, I had to deal with that as well, where it's like, “No, no, no. I think I have things to say. And I think there's an audience. And I think, even if I'm – I'm not writing the definitive book and I'm not claiming to be – I'm not claiming to be more of an expert than maybe I have any right to be, although I do think I have some expertise.”
But yeah, it was interesting kind of when we started talking about this or when you mentioned the idea to me where I was like, “Yeah, there are two things in that, one, having it, of course, as part of the book and then, two, as part of the writing process.”
Lloydie: How do you go about dealing with it, personally?
Ryan: Dealing with imposter syndrome; there's a couple of things that really kind of I used to get by. And one is I think it's a balance of taking yourself, not seriously, but like giving weight to what I feel to my instincts and impulses.
So, I want to do this. I'm interested in exploring this. That's legitimate. And then, on the other hand, it's also like not taking myself too seriously where it's like, yeah, I'm trying this thing and you know what? And it's it went okay or it went terrible or it went wonderful. It's kind of irrelevant. The point for me was to do it and to do it once. And if I like it ever or if there's something there or I really failed and I'm like, “Okay, I'm not satisfied with that. I need to attack it again. I need to go back and keep going.”
I mean, that's how I kind of deal with it, is just to play through it and not let it define the choices I make, because otherwise, I'd never get anything done.
Lloydie: The sense I got talking to Rhi, Sunny and Ryan is that this isn't just a thing a few of us suffer with. Despite the fact that it can seem very personal and very isolating, feeling a bit of a fraud in what you do is a universal thing.
Rhi: In all the years I've been teaching performing there, I've actually spoken to some people about it and I've spoken to people who I hugely admire their work. And you will always find that they all say the same thing back to you and tell you that they have imposter syndrome. And not even had it; they still have it and they'll always have it.
And whilst this doesn't stop it happening; a bit like you can't stop nerve's from happening. Perhaps, it's a good thing in a way to keep you humble, but it's also really useful to know that those people who you pop on a pedestal, don't see themselves as being on that pedestal. They're just doing what they can to kind of make their living and do a good job and seem competent because we all want a competent teacher. Nobody wants to walk into a room and have the teacher go, “Oh, God, you're right with this, everyone. Oh, I'm a bit shy.” That’s the last thing that you want.
So, other people's confidence is not something to be afraid of because underneath – It's a helpful thing. And just knowing underneath all of it that we're all just little human beings trying to do a good job.
Lloydie: Rhi is right. We're all just trying to do a good job. But something in our brains is trying to get in our way.
Ryan: Well, that's the – I mean, in Steven Pressfield’s, The War of Art, he talks about the resistance. And, you know, it could be procrastination. And I think imposter syndrome fits in there as well where there's something that's a big desire that you have or a big creative goal that you want to achieve. It's to write a screenplay or audition for some roles or say like, “I want to audition for this improv troupe or whatever, but who am I? Who can I do that?”
And that is not that is not you. You know, that is this Resistance that Pressfield talks about, that is there to kind of challenge you to make sure that you really wanted and to kind of let it push you. That's what I would say, rather than to let it win.
Lloydie: So, we need to push through, but how? How do we move past something that can really get under our skin and impact our self-esteem? Here's some thoughts on that from Sunny.
Sunny: So, look, I mean, I've had it as well. I've had like people – So, we've had members in Jumprov as well. And again, a lot of people have never done improv before and they will see us do stuff and they'll turn around and it's like {indistinct 13:31 – 32}, “I've seen what you guys are doing. I'm thinking, can I do that?” and I’ll say, “Look, you can do that because obviously, we go through the stuff, we practice it, you pick up the tips and tricks and certain games, you get comfortable with yourself.”
And the main thing is the aspect of getting comfortable with yourself. Like, you know, you get to a point where you feel comfortable, where you bring your complete self on stage, and then you can play up certain aspects and characteristics of yourself to fit the character.
And I think that's when it comes down to that, you know, everyone's always going to feel that can they do it or do they feel out of place? And then everyone's always going to have that nagging voice in their head.
And it's about being kind to yourself and knowing that, “Look, I can do it and everyone's also got these same fears.” And if impostor syndrome is creeping in, it's about just sometimes taking a step back from what you're doing as a person and just thinking, “You know what? You've come so far and you have so much more to give in the situation.”
And don't feel that you are not enough. Feel that you've got so much to give as well. And the idea is that you just give in, you know, being positive with it, confident with it and just having just enjoying it as well.
Ryan: You can think of it like this; that everyone's an imposter at the beginning when they start, no matter what it is; whether it's like I've never fixed a car before or who am I to be an executive chef in this Michelin starred restaurant or whatever.
But the point is to just do a lot of work. That's the real way, I think, to push through imposter syndrome is if you do a lot of work, but that start with just one; that thing that scares you, that gives you that imposter syndrome. If you do that and then you just keep going, if that feels right for you.
And then imposter syndrome is more like a monster under your bed or in your closet at night where you just need to confront it and then it goes away.
Lloydie: I can't wait to get rid of my monsters. As ever, my guests have been amazing. Check out the websites and their work by looking at the show notes for this episode. It's well worth doing.
Rhi: I'm really worried though. I've like {indistinct 15:51} haven't made much sense.
Lloydie: Are you're kidding me?
Rhi: There you go.
Lloydie: Oh, now you're getting imposter syndrome on the interview now, Rhi? Come on.
Rhi: Yeah, I'm impostering right now. Oh, my God. It's like you put your hands up and it's like, “Oh, I wasn't smart enough {indistinct 16:07}. I was thinking enough. Did I listen to him, even though he was asking me the questions; did I listen to him enough?
Do you feel fulfilled, Lloydie? Have I helped you?
Lloydie: Rhi, honestly, like I need you to go away knowing that you've been a great guest? Okay?
Rhi: Okay. Honestly, I had a friend of mine. He said to me, I think I'd like – It was after our many conversations and years of being friends and also like then watching one of my shows.
Oh, it's two separate friends; one said, “It's very noisy in your head” and I was like, “Yeah, I know.” And the other one was like, “God, it must be exhausting being in your mind.”
And it was very interesting that, like, two separate people said that. And it is, you know, I would say trying to be a good person is tiring.
Lloydie: It is, isn’t it?
Rhi: But we should always strive to do it.
Next time… on the Improv Chronicle Podcast.
Lloydie: Many people advised that to be a good improviser, you need to have an interesting life. So, what are the things that people have done? What are the hobbies that people have taken up or professions they've worked in or life habits they've taken on that have helped them in their improv? Let me know yours by emailing them to newsdesk@improvchronicle.com.
The Improv Chronicle Podcast is produced and hosted by me Lloydie James Lloyd. You can help the podcast by subscribing and writing us on your favourite podcast app. And if you have a possible idea for an episode, get to improvchronicle.com.