Initiations: Action, Reception, and the Unspoken
Is the initiation of a scene all that important? How do we make a good start? What are different ways of starting off? This episode we delve into the essence of what makes a good scene start. Guest Rob Norman shares his wisdom on the importance of the "first breath" of a scene, the power of emotions over words, and the necessity of making bold choices on stage. We explore the nuanced craft of initiating scenes and the struggles of overcoming improviser's politeness. This episode offers a fresh perspective on creating compelling scenes that resonate both with fellow performers and the audience.
In this episode you hear from:
Rob Norman - Author and Improviser - "Improvising Now: A Practical Guide to Modern Improv"
Episode hosted and produced by Lloydie James Lloyd
Podcast Theme:
Composed by Chris Stevens at Studio Dragonfly
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Improvising Now: A Practical Guide to Modern Improv
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Episode transcript
Initiations: Action, Reception, and the Unspoken
Lloydie: Literally, you know, I think we should just record a podcast, us being nice to each other. And I think people would listen to.
Rob: It called nice times. And you put it on when you just want it in the background. You want two guys being nice to each other. And we don't talk about anything good. It's just two people being very nice to each other the entire time.
Lloydie: This is the improv Chronicle. I'm Lloydie.
Lloydie: It's more than just a little bit ironic that I still haven't started working on the latest improv Chronicle episode properly. Instead, I'm going to the shop round the corner in my car to get snacks. And this is an episode that's meant to be all about initiating, about starting. And I'm procrastinating. I'm like someone on the sidelines or the back line of an improv show who just isn't getting in there and initiating a scene. And the thing is, I was going to have a bunch of people in this particular episode as well. But again, I procrastinated. I had a lot of things on, and I just didn't get round to talking to people until the last possible moment. Needless to say, one person is an absolute hero. And I had a conversation with them just a couple of nights ago. No, one night ago. And that person is basically the episode. And partly it's because I didn't initiate the process of making this podcast, but actually, partly when I finished the conversation last night and finished the call, I just thought, I don't know how I edit this without destroying the brilliant conversation. Normally I hop between different people who have got really interesting perspectives on improv. This, time I'm doing just one person on the improv Chronicle, which is not what this podcast normally is. But I think that's what this podcast needs to be. So I'm getting snacks, and you're going to hear the guy I spoke to last night.
Rob: Hi, I'm Rob Norman. I'm author of the improv book improvising now, a practical guide to modern improv.
Lloydie: Which everybody should go get immediately.
The beginning of a scene has this whole other thing. The scene doesn't start when you talk
What do you think makes a good initiation? We're at the beginning of the know. Rob Norman steps out on stage. What's good?
Rob: It's interesting thinking about how much of the language around starting a scene is about doing stuff. It's about setting up the scenes, about initiating. It's about action. And really, for me, the beginning of a scene has this whole other thing. Before you say or do anything, it's what I would describe as the first breath of the scene. The scene doesn't start when you talk. The scene starts when you walk out on stage. And so the scene is already beginning when you create a relationship with the person that you're playing with. And so that requires you to receive something. It requires you to receive information or energy, and it requires you to build off of that. And so I love the idea of thinking about what's the first breath of the scene. When I think breath, I think like it's about taking in, inhaling, taking in something and then expiring and letting something out. And I think we're doing that with emotions. We're taking in emotion from our partner. And we're kind of expiring. We're letting it go and sending it back to our partner.
Lloydie: So you're saying, what you see in their eyes, what you read in their body, how they're standing, that kind of thing?
Rob: Yeah, I mean, I think in that first moment, how are we tethering our emotion? Also, we should be mindful of what is an actual. Well, actual scene is really about experiences. Lloyd, you have an experience on stage, I have an experience on stage. And both of that's happening inside of our bodies. It's happening inside of our heads. We can't see or touch or interact through our emotions. So how do we get that emotion to our partner? Well, we have dialogue, we have object work. We have expression, we have proximity. These are ways that we share that feeling that we're having with our partner. I think for us, if you think about, just giving. If you just think about setting up the scene, initiating, saying the opening line, are you doing your half of receiving it? Making sure that your partner knows that, they've been heard. Making sure that you're affected by your partner. So much stress is happening in the beginning of the scene. Set up the who, what, where? Create a character, do something funny, be interesting. Don't block, say a sand. All of that's happening in the first 30 seconds. And so little of our energy is going to saying, hey, I'm with you. We're doing this scene together. You're doing that thing to me. Guess what? I see that. And I'm doing this thing in response back to you.
Lloydie: I love that you say so much stress is there in the first part of the scene. What if it wasn't? Because how important is that initiation? Because isn't our job as improvisers to be flexible and make whatever has happened seem fantastic and seem right?
Rob: I, got two answers for you. Two big answers at you right now. Both going opposite directions. Good. The first one is the agreement, which is absolutely. That's completely true. A lot of new improvisers have a really tough time because they're trying to do everything all at once, and it's just impossible. Your brain doesn't work that way. You can't set up five things and do it perfectly. Every time you split your brain in a different way, you kind of lose fidelity in one of these things. So who, what, where? Character. Be funny, create a good scene, whatever it is, all those things are happening all at once in your brain. I would recommend for new improvisers, just focus on one thing, have a myopic focus, and do one thing better than anyone has ever done in the history of improv. If you start your scene by yawning, keep yawning until you get the award for best Yawner. The yawn will lead you to the next step.
When you step out first into a scene, it is when you are most stressed out
So that's answer number one for you. Here's answer number two. In a dream world, we definitely want to be relaxed at the beginning of our scene, but we also have to acknowledge that when you step out first into a scene, it is when you are going to be more stressed out. It's your first time when you're really interacting with the audience, all of that fear that you're experiencing, that fight or flight, it's going to hit you at the beginning. Once you drop into the scene and your brain chemicals are kind of helping you push you throughout the scene, you kind of stabilize a little bit. But we have to acknowledge that the vulnerability is the beginning of a scene. Each and every time the lights go down, the lights go up. That is the place where you're most sensitive. So we also have to be a little bit graceful for ourselves to remember. It's going to be extra hard during this time, so maybe go extra easy on yourself.
Lloydie: I love the let's go extra easy on yourself. I think so many people think it has to be words. What if it's a shrug of the shoulders? What if it's a raising of the eyebrows? What if it's just a dead stare at somebody? Surely that is almost, I would argue, more precious information than you saying, oh, hey, Mr. Scientist, we're here in your lab and I'm about to be experimented on, or, some such big lay on of words.
Rob: Not only is a shrug of the shoulders more valuable to us, more valuable information to us than saying, here we are in the basement, but actually it's just a stronger offer and here's the reason why. If you start your scene with a feeling, an energy, or an emotion, it makes sense for your body to continue feeling that feeling. That's kind of how we work. You get angry when the situation is resolved. You don't instantly stop being angry. It kind of carries over into the next moment. this is also true when we're improvising. If I'm able to find a particular energy, my body's going to kind of coast with that for a very long time. Conversely, if I start the scene without an emotion, and I'm just explaining something, it is very hard on your body to suddenly feel a very strong emotion. So here we are in the basement, dad. We're making the go cart together. Wow. Let's paint it red. Yes. And. Oh, it's till tomorrow was the big race. I hope I'm ready, dad. Absolutely. You've disappointed me, papa. It's weird to do that jump because you've already told your body that you're safe. You've already told your body that there's nothing to worry about. Now you're going to ask your body to suddenly break down into tears. That's a huge jump for us. So the more we explain, the less likely we are to feel, the more labor it takes for us to generate an emotion that we can sustain throughout a five, seven minute scene.
Lloydie: That's interesting because you say, yeah, that is a jump. and that seems, to an audience certainly really incongruous.
How important is an initiation in terms of gaining trust with an audience
How important is an initiation in terms of gaining trust with an audience? Because we are still, much as it pains me, we're a newer art form than perhaps I would like us to be. And there are some people in an audience who be like, yeah, what is this shit? What's going on? So how important are those 1st 30 seconds in gaining the trust of the audience?
Rob: This is a really good question. I think you can do a weird initiation. I think you can do something bizarre or odd or outside the bounds of what we would expect. I think the thing that the ICE is looking for is once you introduce that information, what do you do with it? Do you repeat it over and over again? Do you turn it into a structure? Or do you throw it away and create random, new, weird things? One of the things I'm telling students nowadays is to be very careful what you bring into the circle. I mean bringing to the circle, I mean, bringing to the space, bring into the scene. Because the best case scenario is when you bring in something into the scene, that you do it for ten minutes straight. So a lot of object work or a lot of initiations, I see, are things that people don't really want to do. They're like buttering bread or they're mopping the floors, like all the things that you put off so you can go to improv class. We're now bringing that into the fantastical space. So if you don't want to mop and the scene goes well, you're going to be mopping for ten minutes straight. So maybe instead, think about what are the things I can actually do for ten minutes? You ask me to fold my laundry for ten minutes, I'm bored. Ask me to be a wizard for ten minutes, you won't be able to get me off stage. Okay.
Lloydie: But if I'm folding laundry, it's not that I'm, folding laundry, it's the emotional state I'm in. If I'm folding laundry and I am angry with myself because I have pissed myself off, then I'm going to fold that laundry in a very different way to. If I am having a conversation with a partner who I'm truly in love with on stage, those are two very different things. And it's not the object work itself that is important there. It's the way in which my, emotions come through it. I would argue, and I think it's.
Rob: A very good argument. I think one thing, what I would say is that if you tell me that there's anger and there's folding laundry, what's the dominant initiation here? I'd probably say it's the emotion that's the one that's evocative. That's what the thing you're going to play with. So ultimately, I would say, is the initiation laundry folding, or is it anger? I'd probably say anger, and you're doing object work in addition to that. And probably, most likely when things get nasty, you're probably going to drop the laundry and just focus on the anger, I think.
Lloydie: Yeah, sure. I mean, I see that. I'm not disagreeing with you. I think you have just. Yes. And me perfectly, Rob. but, I would say, like, if you're going, you're like, what am I doing here? I've chosen laundry. then the laundry is your vessel, not your initiation.
Rob: Love it.
Lloydie: So you're going in and you're folding laundry, because that is a thing through which you can channel your anger. If you have gone in with anger, that's great, but it needs to be channeled somewhere. and it's really fun, I think, to see that build through the folding of the laundry, it gets more and more angry. Whether it's passive aggression, whether it's anger with yourself, wherever the conflict is, whether it's internal or external, you get to see that unfold or, well, actually fold. I guess in the case of folding.
Rob: Laundry, I know you cut yourself out of these episodes, but that wordplay was so good, you should put yourself back in.
Lloydie: well, let's see what happens when I do. Let's see those numbers drop.
Is it more important to do something than to do nothing in improv
there's another thing with initiations. and I don't know whether this happens outside of the UK, but I see a lot of what I call, polite improviser syndrome in the UK, where everybody presumes the other person has an idea and nobody is initiating. Is it more important? I mean, I know, I think to this, this is a loaded question. I, apologize, but is it more important to do something, even if it's not perfect, than to do nothing?
Rob: I think you should do something, and I think you should start the scene by doing something you want to do. The belief that you're going to walk on stage and you're going to say yes. And through the magic of creativity and support, the improv gods are going to give you a good scene. I just don't think it's true. The improv gods will give you a good scene, but they require a sacrifice. And that sacrifice is attention, it's energy, it's emotion. they're going to make it uncomfortable for you. They're going to push you, so they're going to make demands of you. They do not reward people who don't have an answer. They want someone coming in who wants to explore something. One thing that I do do sometimes is walk in with nothing. But when I walk in with nothing, I am focusing on receiving so hard that I feel, an emotion in response. So if I'm walking in with nothing, I'm making myself extra open, because I know I'm trying to create an emotion on the spot so that can work for you. But if you're not doing that, if you're not present in that way, if you're not choosing that, then I think you're going to have a very tough time in your scene. Morning. The other thing I would just say for you is like, what are your improv shows like in the city that you live in here? Where I'm from, improv stage is very coveted. And sometimes you're ten people and you're getting 13 minutes on stage, so you're getting a two minute scene. Maybe you live in your city, great. It's a 40 minutes subway ride. Maybe you're driving in from Niagara Falls and it's going to take you an hour and a half to come to your two minute improv scene. If you get two minutes on stage, do you want to risk it? Do you want to risk having an experience that you didn't choose? That didn't go well for me personally. The only thing that I think I'm entitled to is to experience something of my own choosing. So if I want to be angry or guilty or enjoy the simple contentment I get from a cup of Earl Grey tea, that's my one gimme I get at the beginning of the scene. I'm allowed to feel that, and that's why I'm improvising, because I get to have this human experience without the consequences of living in the real world. So if I'm angry at someone, maybe that ends my friendship with them forever. But if I go on stage and play an angry character, ooh, I can find the nuances of what that might feel like without having to deal with, oh, my gosh, the huge fallout of having a fight with someone. I think maybe some people might think that there's one way to initiate a scene, and really I like to think about my initiations like a golfer's bag with all the different clubs in a long form set. I would never use the same initiation twice in a set because I don't want the audience to figure out how I do it. Like a magician, I'm always switching it up. So maybe I'm starting with a strong offer. Maybe the next scene I'm doing something more open, then I'm doing something more physical. There's also certain shows where there's different kinds of offers that I would do. Let me give you an example. If I'm playing a mono scene with you, Lloydy. I'm not going to come in with a heavy offer, because we're going to build something that's very nuanced, very personal, and I want us to kind of both discover it slowly. So I'm going to really take my time. If we're playing a game, like shoulda said, or new choice, or take that back, where I know in the middle of a short form game host is going to ask me to stop what I'm doing and resay a line of dialogue over and over and over again, I am going to come in with a heavier offer because built into the mechanics of the actual scene itself is this kind of destructive force that makes me reset everything I'm doing. So in that scene, it doesn't benefit me to be nuanced and detailed, but mono, scenes would. So it would change up depending on the kind of show I'm playing.
Lloydie: That's interesting. I definitely switch up how I initiate an awful lot, not least because I do some very, very different shows. The two musical shows I do are wildly different. I know everybody thinks, oh, musical improv, that's one thing. just like improv, it's not. I do an ensemble, improvised musical, but then I also do a two hander, improvised Sontein. They are incredibly different. But then the show that Liam and I do is very different to any of the other. Like doing an Armando show or so. I think what is nice about initiations is the choice you have in how you begin the scene. There isn't one beginning in the same that there isn't one beginning to a play or to a movie. you can start these things in wildly different ways, and you absolutely can nail your who, what, where, if you want to, at the very beginning. And if you are UCB style, long form, which is not the only style of long form, contrary to some beliefs. But, incidentally, I trained at UCB. I love what UCB do. but you can do your big premise lay on, and everyone can have an enormous amount of fun. But equally, I've watched TJ and Dave numerous times and have had the enormous pleasure of being coached by them a couple of times, too. And that is a very different way of the way they do. It is a very different way of beginning your show, and it is every bit as compelling and exciting to do.
Rob: And I think when you're an improviser and you really love the art form, you want to be able to do it all. My dream is to walk into a theater and go, what are we doing tonight? And someone explain to me the show and be like, got it? And that's going to be a lifelong goal. Every year, like, three new improv theaters open up. So it's a lot of work, but I'd love to be able to understand what people do so thoroughly. I can just pop into it.
Lloydie: Actually, that plays into, what Bill Arnett, the Chicago improviser, wrote in his book. It's called the complete improviser. I don't know if you know it, but, it's about being able to do what the show requires of you, rather than what the rulers require of you. And, it's an incredible book, and he's an incredible teacher.
Rob Norman talks about initiation etiquette in Improv Chronicle podcast
Rob: Yeah, I was just going to say, also, it's interesting thinking about initiation etiquette. When you're going to a party with people you don't know, the way you say hello to them is very different than when you see your brother. When you go to a party, you're like, hello, everyone. My name is Rob. And then your brother, you come up behind him and you put him in a stranglehold or something. That's your hello. And, initiations also benefit from a kind of intimacy or shorthand. So when you get to know people better, you're able to do different types of moves, moves that are more intimate. probably if I don't know someone that well, I'm not going to initiate with something negative, anger, anything like that. But if I'm playing with my friend Adam, I know he can take it. So it opens up a lot more doors for us.
Lloydie: That's really interesting, because that plays into something I say a lot to broadcasters, and we've both work in the broadcasting world. People say, how authentic should I be on the radio, for example, or in a podcast? And I'm like, well, you will be a subset of yourself. You speak probably to your grandparents a different way. You speak to your parents friends, a different way to speak to your own friends, and a different way to the way you speak to your work colleagues. Those are all you, but you are calibrating to those situations. and I think the same is true of initiations and shows, isn't it?
Rob: Yeah, you're slipping into something, for sure. You're trying to find. It's kind of like initiations are a little bit like, double Dutch and skipping. There's two ropes coming around, and you're just trying to find your flow into that pocket. And that pocket, once you're in it, you stop thinking. The scene kind of takes you with a current of where it's supposed to go, but jumping in and just making sure you don't get caught up in the ropes, that's the hard part of initiating.
Lloydie: And if you want to hear more of Rob Norman, check out the Backline podcast that he does with Adam Corley. A really, really fantastic improv podcast. If you don't already know about it, if you want to support this improv podcast, you can. There's a link in the show notes that allows you to help us keep going. And if you want to hear nice times, which is a podcast of just me and Rob Norman saying nice things to each other, then do consider sending us a large sum of money, and we will happily produce that regularly. I'm Lloyd, and if you want the world of improv in your inbox, subscribe to the Improv Chronicle newsletter. for free, just go to improvchronicle.com.