Step behind the curtain with Lloydie on the Improv Chronicle as he lifts the lid on a situation impacting a growing number in the improv community: burnout. Lloydie connects with Laura, a member of the Glasgow improv scene and producer of Edinburgh International Improv Festival, and David Raitt, a Toronto improviser with decades of experience, to discuss the fine line between passion and exhaustion. This episode looks at the resilience of creative people navigating the demands of performance, administration, and personal well-being in improvisational comedy.

In this episode you hear:

Laura Hotchkiss - EIIF - https://www.edimprovfest.com/about

David Raitt - The Improv Illusionist - https://improvillusionist.com/

Hosted by Lloydie James Lloyd

Podcast Theme:

Composed by Chris Stevens at Studio Dragonfly

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Episode Transcript

The Improv Burnout Chronicles: When Passion Leads to Exhaustion

Laura: Definitely. There's a few times where I've thought I need to step away from improv entirely, to give myself that distance and space so that I don't take on any more admin.

Lloydie: This is the Improv Chronicle. I'm Lloydie. Late September last year, just as I was getting this podcast back up and running, I was suffering from a serious case of burnout. It was just after the Robin Hood International Improv festival, for which I'm co artistic director, and it had been a hard slog with more twists and turns than the year before. I had given it everything I had, and I was exhausted, both physically and mentally. Now, I'd love to say that was the first time that I pushed myself to my limits for improv, but it's certainly not. I wrote about Burnout in the Improv Chronicle newsletter just a couple of weeks ago and had a few interesting replies. So I decided to catch up with a couple of people who reached out to me about it. It's Thursday last week, a rainy day in February 2024, and I happened to be in London the same day as the scottish improviser who'd reached out to me. We decided to dodge the showers and meet up in a bar in the Central London railway station.

Laura: Hello, how are you doing?

Lloydie: How are you?

Laura: Yeah, not bad. Hi, I'm Laura. I am a member of the Improv team, your da. We are based up in Glasgow, and I also produce the Edinburgh International Improv Festival. Been doing improv for, four ish, five years now. Very much in the cult, very much part of it now. And, yeah, having a lot of fun, doing a lot of shows and, yeah, also taking on a lot of admin, kind of.

Lloydie: That's what we're talking about, isn't it? Because it's really easy to say yes to all of these things, to fall down the magical rabbit hole of improv, and then suddenly find out that you've got no time left and no energy left. How have you experienced burnout?

Laura: Well, I started doing improv, as I always wanted to do it, always wanted to be part of it. Watched a lot of improv growing up, and, all my favourite comedians had done improv in the background. So when I heard that there was an improv class in Glasgow, I was like, this is great, I'm going to do this. Part of the reason was I work in an office and I do a lot of admin during the day, and I was like, this will be great. This is a fun, creative thing to do at night. That's totally separate. Imagine the creative juices will flow, I'll have the best time, and slowly. It's also like, don't get me wrong, my personality, part of it. Slowly. Whilst being involved in improv, suddenly there's the admin of being part of a team, organizing, coaching, getting everyone together. When's our show? What's our show? I work in marketing, so I've taken the marketing on for a lot of things and then getting more involved in the festival. So, yeah, it has very much become, I finished my job and I closed down my work email and I sat on my laptop still and then opened the other email and then start doing, that. And it has the burnout, definitely. There's a few times where I've thought I need to step away from improv entirely, to give myself that distance and space so that I don't take on any more admin. It's hard as well in a creative area because I think everyone's so passionate about it and everyone has great ideas and opinions. And whilst I think we do all want the scene to thrive and grow, everyone's got a different idea of how that should be. And sometimes you are just going up against personalities and all, trying to find a common ground. And, there's a lot of different theaters and different shows popping up, and I would love to be involved in as many as I can, but sometimes I personally have to say no and step back just so that I don't end up doing what I know I will do, which is, how's your social media? Can I look at your social media? What's your analytics like? Let me see. Yes, there's definitely been a few times I've thought about stepping away from improv. There's been a few times I've found myself lying in bed, just not even thinking about scenes or training or, things I've learned and want to go over, just sitting, going, how can we get more people to our show? Have I promoted that? What will the ticket sales be? Will we earn enough to kind of pay for our next coaching session? It becomes a business which really feels like the opposite of why we do it and what we're doing it for. I think, everyone needs to be nice to whoever takes on the admin and their team sometimes, because we're all funny people, if someone puts out something into the group chat, saying, let's all arrange to get together, sometimes bits happen, jokes occur, and sometimes you just need to give someone a straight answer to let the admin move forward.

Lloydie: Oh, my God.

Laura: Yes. I think I've developed a face now where people can tell I'm, No bits, no bits, no jokes. Straight answer, please. We need to move this forward. yeah, I do really feel like I do. Not by far. I am not the only person in the teams that I'm in doing the admin. There are other people doing bits and pieces and very much like in your dad, the team. I'm in. Someone looks after the money, someone looks after booking coaches and getting us all together. I look after the social media and trying to market the shows. So we're all taking a bit, and I think it's just having respect for everyone's roles, helping out when you can, and also just accepting that not everything can be a joke all the time. Sometimes it's a serious chat, or if you've planned a 45 minutes Zoom meeting, sometimes you do need an agenda just to get through it. And that feels so business like, but it's the simplest way.

David Raitt talks about burnout in Improv Chronicle newsletter

Lloydie: So when I was talking about burnout in the recent Improv Chronicle newsletter, I received a wise comment from a wise improviser that I wanted to follow up with.

David: My name is David Raitt I am an improviser in Toronto, Canada. I, have been improvising for over 25 years, professionally and, teaching. And I am the author of the Improv Illusionist, a new book about physical improv.

Lloydie: that I am currently reading. But I'm only a few pages in. So no spoilers, please, David. Okay, no problem.

David: Sure. Enjoy.

Lloydie: Oh, I will.

Lloydie: I am doing already.

David Raitt talks about what burnout is and how he manages it

so I'd love to know, first.

Lloydie: Of all, what your experience of burnout is.

Lloydie: Is that something that you've, had yourself or have you managed to be very boundaried?

David: Yeah, well, I was, working really steadily as a professional improviser for many years, up until about, 2000. And, eight, 2009, I think. I worked for the second city. I was in the touring company all over Canada. I was, performing on the main stage and that, sort of ended the way second city, careers do, very quickly. And I was, working really hard to integrate myself into the Toronto, community more broadly and, join some different shows and things. And, at the same time, a number of, personal issues cropped up in my life and it really became, untenable, the schedule that I was keeping and the problems I was experiencing. And, I really noticed that the work was, becoming difficult and I really discovered the, problems that you can have when you don't feel that freedom when the stress, I guess, is what it is, to do a good show, to really make things happen on stage, became, really overwhelming. And, I had to step back from improv for quite a while before I became a lot more comfortable and felt the urge to play and just release that. So when I came back to it, I really did kind of monitor how I'm feeling about, improv. because if I'm not feeling at my best, if I'm not feeling relaxed, if I don't feel like I can play, then it really shows up in the works. And it led to this kind of rule that I set up for myself, which is you put specific hard limits on how much you do during the week. So that it forces me to keep track of what I'm doing. it forces me to think more carefully about the gigs and the jobs that I accept. And, it really helps me manage my energy so that when I go to the stage, I feel wonderful, I feel happy. I'm happy to be with the people that I'm with and, free to play.

Lloydie: I only realize it's going wrong once it started to go wrong. I like the old boiling a frog thing. The frog doesn't notice that the water is slowly heating up. and by the time it notices that the water is heating up, it's too late and it's boiling. That's me.

Lloydie: How are you doing this, David?

Lloydie: Because it sounds like you have.

David: Well, that's the reason why I kind of have the limits on what I take on. Because you don't really know how much it's affecting you until you are too far over the line. you don't get that sense that you are taking on too much. Because we love this work, right? We love the teaching, and, you and I are blessed to have multiple different opportunities so that we teach, we rehearse with multiple different partners and troops. We have shows, here and there, and then all the other improv adjacent kind of activities that we can do, like working on festivals, or planning out new formats or dreaming up new show ideas. And then on top of that, there is also, Well, I'm free tonight, and there's a jam in my neighborhood, so why not go down and do that too? We just love the art form so much.

Are there certain things about improvisers that can lead to burnout

Lloydie: Burnout happens in a lot of different careers, in a lot of different walks of life. Are there certain things about us as improvisers, particularly improvisers who take on organization that leads us to burnout? I had a terrible burnout after, our festival last year. And I know some of it is the. Yes. And nature of it. Some of it is down to the fact that actually, this isn't our full time job, so we have to fit it in around something else. Do you think those are factors or are there other factors?

Laura: Definitely. I think one of the factors I think I have is that I started improv so late, I didn't get into it until I was 30. And I'd always wanted to be a part of it. Like, I'd looked at, going to do intensives in other countries and just could never afford it. And suddenly there were classes in a community within my home city that I could be part of. And I was on a job and I could afford things now. And, So there is a little bit of me that's like, you've waited so long for this chance, do whatever you can to make this succeed. And I think it is such a fun experience. And there is that buz of being on stage that you would like to contribute whatever you can to make it happen. And sometimes we do just put our hearts and souls into it. And there's been a couple of times where I've had to deal with disappointments or serious subjects m and improv, and I have to regularly go back to, I'm not getting paid for this. This isn't my day job. This is a lot of stress to take on for something that is not my day job. And, at the end of the day, someone's going to have to do that. But we maybe need to create better systems so that we can all take a little bit of it. I think as much as it's not the day job, there is an expectation in improv communities that theaters and groups will act and respond as if we are a corporation, as if there are human resources in place for safeguarding, and as if there are, I don't know, like payroll and finances to keep accounts going and records going, and a marketing department making sure your shows are there. I mean, there is this expectation that everyone will act in a very professional way, but that man hours and training and a lot of input to that. And not everyone that is in those roles has been formally trained in that. It's just enthusiasm and a desire to move things forward. And that feels like can be a very quick way to burn out as well. If you're not trained for the role that you're in, you are trained in. Yes. And, and then suddenly you're dealing with serious subject matters. that's such a quick way of burnout, such a quick way, it's hard to find a, solution. I think there's definitely been discussions before, and there'll be discussions after, and I don't think I'll figure it out. I think it will be. Everyone will come together, and we'll just keep trying, testing different routes to make sure that everyone is involved in as much improv as they want to be, and not as not suffering stress or adverse side effects from, unfortunately, the rigmarole of putting a show together, putting a theater together, getting a community going, keeping in touch with the community.

Clare Close offers advice on how to avoid burnout in improv

Lloydie: So I'm wondering, what advice would you give, not only somebody else, but also perhaps yourself, as to how to avoid burnout with all of the. Particularly as someone who takes on a lot of, different things within the improv community.

Laura: Definitely set time frames. I think because you're passionate about something, it can be really easy to open the laptop and keep working till late at night. We've all probably experienced it through work or different hobies that we're in. Definitely setting time scales and taking a step back. And there's that thing, like every improv, class I've been in has always said have other things outside of improv. Unfortunately, if you came to improv, as originally your other thing, and now it's not your other thing anymore, maybe you have to look for another thing. But, yeah, it's also just talking to people. I've reached out to a lot of different improvisers. M not necessarily in my community, but from further afield recently with just different problems that I've experienced or, like, if I'm trying to set up something, what's the best way to do it? And do they have an experience in it and everyone is willing to share? Like, I've not met anyone yet. That said, no, I don't have time to talk. And a lot of the times I've, spoken to people, they've experienced something similar or have heard of something similar and have some advice. so, definitely, I think if we keep the communication lines open and all keep speaking to each other and just be very open, we will probably altogether find better ways through, I think, hopefully. Fingers crossed.

Lloydie: Mine too.

Laura: Yeah.

David: I try to think, of it in rules, the comedy rule of three. so that, I try to take on no more than three things, during the week. And that's not that my schedule got so many things that I got to cut it down to three, but it's more or less three activities. So if I'm teaching a class once a week, then that would be one thing. if I am, rehearsing something, I will try to keep. I try not to multiple rehearse different shows. I try to commit myself to one thing at a time, and that would be two. And then the third would be something else that's more creative or free for me to do. So if there's a show that's coming up that week, that would be a third thing. If it's a, slow week, then it would be, some, dedicated time towards, working on a project or, developing, a new ideas, for future shows, or, even just hanging out with people and discussing things. Like, it might be just an informal jam that we would get together and just hang out, something that's more focused in there. And then, there will be occasional times where there are more than those three things pop up. And that would be the time where I have to think, okay, well, what maybe can I say politely no to. And I, have to make that choice. And I think making that choice makes it more deliberate. How I'm conducting my improv career. And that's all the better for not only my physical energy, but also my ability to do the work more freely. And with that level of play.

Laura: You.

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