David Escobedo, a PhD candidate and the mind behind the Improv Boost website, joins Lloydie to explore the complexities of maintaining individuality while fostering group collaboration. They discuss the balance between contributing one's unique voice and accommodating others, the unintentional nature of assimilation, and the impact it has on storytelling diversity.

Guest:
David Escobedo

Host:
Lloydie James Lloyd

Podcast Theme:
Composed by Chris Stevens at Studio Dragonfly

Support The Improv Chronicle Podcast by donating or sponsoring an episode. Your contribution helps us continue to share the stories and wisdom of improvisers from around the globe. https://ko-fi.com/improvchronicle

EPisode Transcript

Lloydie James Lloyd: This is the improv Chronicle. I'm Lloydie. Back at the Robin Hood International Improv Festival in September 2023, I had a bit of a revelation, partly down to one of the panel talks that was being given by David Escobedo, who's an improviser, originally from California, currently living in the UK and doing a PhD in improv, and also runs the Improv boost website and social media channels. David was talking about assimilation, and that talk and some questions that resulted afterwards caused me to write a newsletter post a while back, where I described my own experience with what David describes as assimilation. For the first four or five years of me improvising, I don't remember me playing anything other than heterosexual characters. I was regularly in those stereotypical husband and wife scenes. And it wasn't until years later that I was ever in a scene where I was in a gay relationship, let alone a scene where being in a relationship wasn't the central point of the scene. So for my first few years of improv, despite being the only openly gay improviser in the improviser community that I was part of, and despite being open about my sexuality generally, I fitted in. I assimilated. I didn't bring one really important part of my unique voice to the scenes that I was doing on stage. And it wasn't until that moment in a theatre in September 2023 that I ever processed, questioned or worked out what on earth I'd been doing or the impact that it had on my improv. Here's an excerpt from that session that David led.

David Escobedo: Now, improv can be used to assimilate, because the improv process takes place in workshops, not just on stage. And the learning process is like by audience, like interacting. Plus, there are institutions or there's organisations that will give people opportunity based on how entertaining they are, how much they make others laugh. And so it's not just the leadership, it's not just the teachers that have the possibility of assimilating. They're also. The community has a possibility of assimilating or diminishing marginalised voices. and then, So in my thesis, I'll just wrap up with this. There are fears to improv training. That's another thing, because I'm not analysing improv, because once. Once you see a show, improv has already taken place. If I analyse a show, then there's very little intersection for me to affect what's happening. But improv training is where you can affect the process. So I'm analysing improv training at this.

Lloydie James Lloyd: Point, I'd already got my brain whirring. And then this question happened.

People from underrepresented groups may be afraid to lose their identity

Audience Member: Could you please elaborate on the concepts of, fear of assimilation, fear of, assimilation

David Escobedo: That was my question, too. So people from underrepresented groups maybe may be afraid to lose their identity. And I think that it's not an irrational thing to lose your identity, because we all have a way that we view ourselves. And so when we feel assimilated, there's almost the opposite of the magnification of the self. the magnific.

Speaker C: So one of the reasons we like.

David Escobedo: Celebrities is because those celebrities have virtues that we like. I like that celebrity because they're artistic, or they do this genre that I like. And if they're popular, that means my virtues are popular. So if you're being assimilated, that means that my virtues are not popular. And it's almost like a, It's almost like a de escalation of the self, and you're losing your identity. All these things you've been raised to. It's interesting because I don't think there's a fear. There is a fear in assimilating others, but there's more of an unawareness of assimilating others. And one of the research questions I have is, how can we tell more diverse stories on stage? And if we're assimilating each other, then we're losing all those diverse stories. We're rehashing the same social script and the same idea over and over again. So the way that, ah, we tell more diverse stories and the way that improv becomes it evolves is we make space for diverse stories. So fear of, assimilating others may be a misnomer. Maybe it's misleading. It's more of a fear of you being assimilated.

David Zeman says improv needs to be able to accommodate other people

Lloydie James Lloyd: So after writing about it and thinking about it, I wanted to sit down with David and have a deeper dive. He's doing his PhD at the moment, and assimilation is one of the things he's written about. So I asked him how he would define it.

Speaker C: When I have a thought, I think about, what's the opposite of that thought? Or I, try to look at both sides of an issue. And one of the things about assimilation is, I think that in the last few years, it's been a very hot topic to talk about inclusion and to talk about assimilation. But I think in reality, when you're doing improv, to have this sort of ensemble, group creativity, there are forms of assimilation that are actually. That we do and that are beneficial to the space. So one of my examples, which is something that we commonly practise and teach in improv, is the sweep edit. Now, if you don't know improv and you come to your first improv show, you kind of get it by context, but you would not choose to do the sweep edit. You have to learn what that sign means. Someone running across the stage with their hand up like a little shark fin, supposed to represent the curtain closing or the fade in a movie. And you get that as an audience member. But you have to learn what that sign means. And, that's a way where we go, okay, we're all going to assimilate now, we all have the same language, or the same behaviour means the same thing to us. When that happens, now we all leave stage. So not only do I use that as my sign for assimilation, but I use that as a sign of where sometimes we actually ask people to assimilate in order to do group collaboration.

Lloydie James Lloyd: As I was talking to David, it struck me that as much as we need to bring our own unique voice to improv, to avoid assimilation, we also need to be able to accommodate other people. So how do we get that balance?

Speaker C: For the most part, I think assimilation is a huge disadvantage and terrible to improv, because in improv, one thing we do is we have different perspectives collide. Liz Allen says we're collision experts, meaning that we have more fruitful moments on stage. If we're not the same person, if we are the same person with the same experiences, and we present material just to be confirmed by the audience, then we're seeing the same stories. And then people are laughing because they're confirming what they already believe. But if we're collision experts and we see perspectives collide on stage, and even if it's abrasive or uncomfortable, or it takes time to process, I think that creates really authentic moments on stage. And not only does that create authentic moments, but that creates more diverse stories on stage as opposed to hearing the same story over and over and over again.

Shared references and shared virtues are very important in improv

Now, one of the things about improv that makes it really unique, I'm going to kind of go off on a tangent, but I do think it's related to this question that makes it really unique to a lot of other experiences in life, is the art form is tied into two very important things, which ties into culture and assimilation. Shared references and shared virtues. Now, if we're doing a short form set and we're doing good, bad, worst, if you know the short form game, good bad worst, you have someone give good advice, bad advice, and worse advice. And you ask the audience for characters and for good, good. Someone says, obi Wan Kenobi. Now, that has to be a shared reference. I have to know who Obi Wan Kenobi is, and then my expression of Obi Wan Kenobi has to meet or completely challenge your expectations of who Obi Wan Kenobi is. But there's other shared references, such as, if I come in and I'm like, oh, this Tesco. I'm trying to use the automatic teller. Tesco is not an american thing. That's a shared reference that everyone in this region knows and that little voice that tells you, please pick up your bags, or whatever it is, that's a shared reference as well. But there's also shared virtues in improv and in cultures. And these shared virtues can be like drama or comedy or puns or punching down or whatever it is. Those shared virtues pervade not only the art form, but the community in which the art form is present. So Dewey says that, art is not an isolated event. Art is not just the artist, and it's also not an expression between the artist and the audience. Dewey says it's an expression of the artist's lived experience within that community or within that time period or within that culture. So that's one thing where we have, I think, shared virtues and shared, shared references are very important, especially when we're talking about assimilation. Now, something that makes it very complex is when we're in improv space, the director may say things like, oh, here's what we're trying to do. Here's what we're trying to do. Or a teacher. Teacher is probably a more direct, like, here's how you do improv, right? Here's how you do this. But these virtues and, references are not only confirmed in the classroom. There's this theory that education is a form of colonialism. Because I'm telling you what's m important. I'm telling you who the influences are. I'm telling you what the milestones are. But in improv, it's also unique. There's a book by Amy C. Ham called whose improv is it anyways? Fantastic book, where the audience, once it's presented and you get that laughter, or you get that, oh, good show. Afterwards, the audience is also confirming these references and virtues that might not have been instilled by the teacher or maintained by the director. So it's a very difficult field to navigate, because you have assimilation happening not just from teacher to student, not just from director to cast members, meaning a hierarchy of people of influence to people trying to study. It also happens in the presentation of the material, which makes it a very complex thing to talk about.

Being assimilated or assimilating others is not always intentional

Lloydie James Lloyd: So here's the thing. We're talking about assimilation now. But I didn't know I was assimilating. I didn't know whether the people who I was assimilating with knew that I was assimilating, if that makes sense. And it makes me wonder, how conscious is this process?

Speaker C: Assimilation is not always an intentional act. Being assimilating or assimilating others is not always intentional. It's not always obvious. A lot of times it's unintentional. It's just like, we're just doing this for fun. But my concept of fun is puns. And so if I'm the director and if I'm the one that chooses who gets to perform every Friday night, everyone that gets puns is going to get that rewarding mechanism, something viola spolin calls the approval disapproval syndrome, that like, okay, I'm approving everyone that does puns and does jokes like me, and they're getting more stage time, but I may be unaware of that. I may be, I'm just thinking that's quality improv. I'm thinking like that. That's what good improv is. And that's, that's my subjective opinion about it. But because I'm a gatekeeper with references, with resources, that's what's being rewarded in that space.

Lloydie James Lloyd: So how and why does assimilation happen?

Speaker C: One of the reasons that people assimilate others is out of a magnification of the self. Now, this is also why, like, we worship celebrities, because if that celebrity has our same virtues and values and they're famous and they're making millions of dollars, then my virtues and values must be valuable, because here's the evidence of it. And so a lot of things are done out of magnification of the self, of, we want to be confirmed, or we think we're in America, there's this big, like every, we're all special. I'm special. And so we're all, we're all neo from the major, we're all Luke Skywalker from the Star wars, we're all Harry Potter from Hogwarts. So we're all that special person. So we want to confirm that. There's a great quote. I'm going to read it out for you, from Brene Brown's book. And this is another reason why assimilation happens. And this is by the Seattle, Seattle Seahawks, Coach Pete Carroll, and he says there's no question that it's easier to manage a fitting in culture. You set up standards and rules. You lead by put up or shut up, but you miss real opportunities, especially helping your team members find their purpose. When you push a fitting in culture, you miss the opportunities to help people find their personal drive, what's coming from their hearts. Leading for true belonging is about creating a culture that celebrates uniqueness. What serves leaders best is understanding your players best efforts. My job as a leader is to identify their unique gift or contribution. A strong leader pulls players towards a deep belief in themselves. And I think that's a fantastic observation, that it is much easier, especially in institution improv institutions in the United Kingdom, where it's smaller, or you don't get paid for it, or you don't have a lot of money, or you don't have a lot of time. It's so much easier to, you know, to be here. You have to fit into this paradigm. You know, we're a long form improv team that does slow improv, and if you want to fit in here, that's what you have to do. Now, you might not explicitly say that, but in order to fit in and be part of the click, that that's what's reinforced there. But a belonging culture is like seeing people that are different and allowing those differences to unfold. And I'll be brutally honest with you, I fail at that all the time. The people that succeed at it, Jay Zuko, Liz Allen, they blow my mind and they inspire me to be better at it. I at least try to be better at it all the time. I, try to improve at it, but I fail at it all the time.

Lloydie James Lloyd: And I think that's the point to be trying and failing all the time will constantly help us learn. It might not be one of those things that we can ever fully succeed at, but the process of trying will help us create a better improv space for more people. The Improv Chronicle podcast is produced and hosted by me, Lloydie James Lloydie. If you go to improvchronicle.com, comma, you can find out details of how you can donate to help make this project a bit more sustainable. If you can't do that, please on the app that you're listening to right now, if you can rate, and subscribe to this podcast, then that will make a huge difference, as will a rather nice review. Really helps with the algorithm. And if you want full transcripts of any episode of the Improv Chronicle, just go to improvchronicle.com.