The Power Of Two: Improvised Duos - Part One
Two person improv
Two person shows have been a growing trend in improv and with the release of a three part Netflix special from improvisers Thomas Middleditch and Ben Schwartz, there is a now a mainstream spotlight on improvised duos. Despite theatres being closed right now, people around the world are talking about and forming opinions on what an improvised two person show can be. This is the first of two episodes looking at what is special about having just two people performing the whole show.
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This episode features:
David Pasquesi (TJ and Dave)
The TJ and Dave Vimeo series: https://vimeo.com/ondemand/tjanddave
The TJ and Dave book: https://books.google.com/books/about/Improvisation_at_the_Speed_of_Life.html?id=zyjWoQEACAAJ
You can follow him here on Twitter: @DPasquesi
And here on Insta: @DPasquesi
Scott Adsit and John Lutz
See their incredible set at Just For Laughs festival in 2013. See the whole thing here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZM10ZCu8Nu0
Also, check out this hilarious clip of Scott Adsit and Christina Gausas in their two person show: https://ucbcomedy.com/media/4038
Rachael Mason
Check out this wonderful set from The Boys (Susan Messing and Rachael Mason) - https://youtu.be/FD0ZQf26Deg
Louis Kornfeld and Rick Andrews
You can see Kornfeld and Andrews, every Sunday night on the Magnet Theatre's live stream: https://www.twitch.tv/themagnettheater/
Derek’s Mojo
Derek’s Mojo have a Facebook page with some pretty cool videos on them. Watch the videos and be sure to like the page too. https://www.facebook.com/dereksmojo/
The Improv Chronicle Podcast is produced and hosted by Nottingham improviser Lloydie James Lloyd
Theme music - Sam Plummer
Logo design - Hélène Dollie
Episode transcript:
This…. Is The Improv Chronicle Podcast…. I’m Lloydie
It’s Tuesday 19th May 2020
Two person shows have been a growing trend in improv and with the release of a three part Netflix special from improvisers Thomas Middleditch and Ben Schwartz, there is a now a mainstream spotlight on improvised duos. Despite theatres being closed right now, people around the world are talking about and forming opinions on what an improvised two person show can be.
This episode you’ll hear about different styles of shows - and how things change when you move from improvising as an ensemble and start improvising with just one other person on the stage with you.
We start at The Magnet Theatre in New York where Louis Kornfeld and Rick Andrews have been performing their two person show, Kornfeld and Andrews, on Sunday nights for the past six years…
[CLIP FROM SHOW} I don't want to be adorable I don't want my first impression to be adorable because then it just projects like I think that's your secret weapon the door the, yeah what's what's what's your what's your mail but she's not what's your tracking this what's your name number one selling point confidentiality. [AUDIENCE LAUGH - CLIP ENDS]
I would say we improvise something in the spirit of an hour long play erm that tends to be at a slightly slower pace than what most people associate with improv er, tends to be about characters who are a little bit more grounded in a little bit more realistic than you tend to associate with improv um, and our goal is to do a show that's that's entertaining for people with the minimum amount of effort on our part. You think that's fair?
Yeah yeah It if if we find ourselves with two characters who don't have to move at all for an hour I think that the we we we walk off stage feeling like something went right.
Yeah my my my like holy grail for our show would be doing a show where we literally sit completely still for an hour and like at like an hour and one minute one of us turns our head a little bit and the audience goes crazy and the lights black out. That to me would be like I I I aspire for that level of efficiency in a show.
It's not an achievable goal but it's that's that's the direction that our, it points towards yeah. Well I think we try to do whatever it is the person would do and so some shows might start us off in the middle of something active and there's people in the store getting snacks and why would they stay in the store so they leave and they go and they get in the car they walk down the street they you know if if we find ourselves with two people who are in the middle of a moment that is not changing why would we artificially try to change it? So I think it's just trying to accept whatever's happening as being the exact right thing to happen and and go go with that as long as that feels like it's the right thing and if that's the whole show that's the whole show if if not then something else will happen I think not trying to force it either way and er just kind of let things be this is where our minds at.
I first saw Kornfeld and Andrews a couple of years ago and marveled at their patience and their dedication to character. It's an incredible show, however taking it slow isn't the only way to go as exemplified by Monica Gaga and Jodyanne FR AKA London improv duo Derek's Mojo.
Fun fast and feminist is one wonderful tagline that Monica came up with for us. We get stories from the audience or suggestions from the audience which we we get the questions for what we're going to get from the audience from the story that we're telling and then audiences are so wonderful because they share things with us they share their stories or they share their ideas whatever that come up with. And it's kind of like a gift when an audience gives you something like that and taking it and and turning it into a story in in into a new narrative it's just such a lovely thing and having that gift from the audience and being able to share it with and give back to them as something new and fuzzy and all sparkles and bells is such a nice thing to do such a buzz.
Jodyanne I definitely feel like the love and the excitement just comes out whenever you you speak about it and the audience definitely are giving us gifts and I just realizes in reflection that I'm a little bit of a greedy gift receiver in a sense of they give us a great this gift so of a story or sharing a suggestion and I want to hear more more more and I think it just for a little bit that erm we're here to create something from that not just to have a talk show with one audience member.
When it comes to two-person improv two names that come into my mind are powerhouse improvisers Susan Messing and Rachel Mason in Chicago but they didn't start off as a duo as Rachel explains.
So, Susan and I started out as a four man with Kate Duffy and Emily Candini and we were called "Children of a Lesser God" and each one of us played like um, like like feral raccoons like scratching and tearing and then Emily left and we didn't have to scratch in tear as much we became the playboys. Kate was sort of like our thoughtful player and I was a heart player in Susan was our wild player and then when Kate moved to LA and it was just me and Susan we both discovered that we complemented each other very very well although I she hates when I say this we have a duo together in "The Boys" and we call that "we make it worse" and in that show we just dig holes and Susan and I go toe to toe but I am also her main partner in Messing With A Friend but since her name is on that show I play a little differently like I serve her in that show if that makes any sense? I I guess you're reacting to her offers more? Yes as opposed to editing and like going toe to toe in our two man.
That is interesting in and of itself can I dig into that slightly? What what is it like having a duo where you have two very different shows that you you put on?
Um, what Messing with a Friend has is tons of scenes tons of joy as she calls it "an uncensored romp through hell" so it's much more playful and like anything goes in "The Boys" because I go toe to toe with her and I tend to be headier improviser I think we end up finding more patterns um or like like at the end we're always like "wow that was the thing".
Whilst things began for Rachel and Susan as part of a bigger team, it was the formation of a team with the idea that it might grow bigger that was the genesis of a legendary Chicago improv duo - TJ and Dave. I've lost count of the number of improvises that I know that have been inspired by them but I do know the I'm amongst that number. David Pasquaise recalls how it began.
Yeah we didn't start out start out to do a two person show we just decided we wanted to do something together and we weren't sure how many people are going to be in it and erm decided that it's easier to ask people to join than un-ask them so we decided to be prudent about who we asked to join and we decided that we will ask as need be. We'll try it with the two of us if we need more we'll ask and we, so, the first show we did was not like what we're currently doing um, it was these three separate scenes erm, that were unconnected, completely different characters and locations and everything um, and I didn't, um, neither of us cared for it so the next time we just decided to um stay in the scene and try to see what happens and that's when we decided, I think, consciously to attempt to, as an experiment, to see how these things that we say we believe in actually work. We say we believe that all that's required is we need to respond honestly moment to moment given everything else that's been established that's we say we do that but let's actually do that.
How would you describe the style of the show?
I guess it's organic improvisation I think would be a an accurate description.
And what kind of process are you going through from the moments the lights come up because unlike most improv shows you you know you don't take a suggestion.
Right erm, from the moment the lights go up the idea of the of what we're doing is to respond honestly in this moment, er taking into consideration everything else that's been established in this scene, relationship, show, up until this point so when the lights go up we are responding honestly to what we're, what is happening right now. And there's already stuff happening before anyone starts speaking so um, we just try to er behave as though all that is true.
And you say there's already stuff happening before you start speaking what what do you mean specifically by that?
Um there's a relationship that's already established er there's certainly we have proximity we have physicality we have a look on someone's face. The, there's a lot of information before any words and this is these are the kinds of things that I think we do all the time when you're walking down the street you see someone you suss them out you determine whether or not first of all whether this is a danger and then um other things beyond that. But we're doing, we never speak to those people we we can glean a lot about them and we're usually probably pretty accurate.
Back at the beginning of March on what was the penultimate week of theatres being open I'm managed to catch a duo that never fail to make me laugh and always leave me with a sense of delight. The show was at the Upright Citizens Brigade's New York Theare which now sadly has closed permanently. I managed to spend some time backstage before a show to chat to the to cast members who just about to go on.
Hi I'm Scott Adsit I'm an improviser from Chicago erm and my partner John Lutz and I met in Chicago I think. I was at Second City a little before John and then we started working together once we are both in New York er, I was working on "30 Rock" and so was he.
Yeah hi I'm John Lutz I'm also a Chicago improviser um, and right now I write for Late Night with Seth Meyers. Um and yes Scott and I met er I think you stayed in my apartment um a while er before it before you even got "30 Rock" um, I think we might here and I was a fan of yours in Chicago, we might have performed together briefly but we really didn't know each other until New York.
So how do John and Scott find things different when they're performing as a duo as opposed to being in a multi person ensemble?
Your mind is always working when you're improvising even if it's a two person or a six person or ten person or or huge like Armando thing where there's like just a tons of people um, I find that my mind let's go more in a two person show because I have to focus on being in the moment at all times and on the sidelines sometimes if it's a bigger group thing I can it's it it's just different and that I can be planning the moves in my head a little bit more before before I do than when I edit and here you just have to find it as you go and kind of put things in the back of your head and hope that they're there later which more often than not they are. And also it's like everything you do is responded to, yes, immediately and and you can focus all your attention on one other person you can just make one person the good the whole time and hope to to bolster what they're doing um and not have to think about five different relationships in one scene going on you can you can it's a much purer kind of scene I think. When it comes to the difference between ensembles and duos,
Rachel Mason thinks choosing who you improvise with is really important. So let me start by saying it this way, I think the best ensembles put themselves together and largely ensembles don't get that choice they're put together via auditions that somebody else is running or they're just your class so ensembles that put themselves together tend to have like they have the same sense of humour or the same reference level or the same love a style, so when we pair away like twelve people down to two we have like, we have that on a on a micro level. Like, it's very in tune and you get to see like a comfortability where people, like Susan and I can finish each other's sentences and I like when she does something I like I almost know where she's going to go.
[CLIP FROM SHOW - WHERE RACHAEL FINISHES SUSAN’S SENTENCE]
The hard part about a two person as opposed to like group improv like in group improv well you and your friend are plane pilots the rest of your bodies can make the plane and that is incredible and when it's just me and Susan like we have to bring the plane with us. I don't know if that makes any sense. I think I get where you're coming from because you're doing all your own support work basically. Yeah yes, some people are like er "my twelve person team as fifteen minutes we're so nervous" and I'm like why, is you also and like me and Susan do two two-prov for forty five minutes to an hour. I couldn't imagine being on a thirteen person team and only having fifteen minutes that's crazy to me. So I guess that's another benefit like there's breath in a two-prov and the audience can feel more voyeuristic in a two-prov, like really like a fly on the wall.
The audience's perception of it is something that Monica and Jodyanne from Derek's Mojo think is a noticeable differences well.
I think may be like first you're like wow this is two of them, so when it comes to to a going down to two or less performers in improv there's there's for want of the best term, no where else to hide. It's the two of you. You don't have that time to maybe sit back and go I'm enjoying my other players on stage may be like the other two three people in my troupe but i can take a seat back er yeah I can take a step back and maybe I'll come in half way through the show if that's where I feel like it might be needed. I feel like having a two prov you definitely are, you can be more engaged as a performer and very hyper aware um, and then a a second thing I would say that I love about two prov and what makes it different um hopefully there won't be a massive backlash, I feel like it has to definitely come from a place of love. Most the two provs I see and the two provs that have lasted a long time and now I'm saying it, it's probably for bigger groups as well, it comes from a place of one, I just like being with this person, two, I really enjoy playing with this personal also and then three, we want we want to make some thing, and we really invested in this thing that we're then making and this is all this is our baby, hopefully you can see how it for you'll be able to see that you "Oh right they love that so much they're enjoying it and they're so so invested".
With a two prov, um, it has all those wonderful thing that Monica was just outlining it is so true, and it's, I wouldn't necessarily say that a two-prov is necessarily better anything than ensemble piece or even a solo prov because they all have their own genius things about them and doing them as the performer having the chance to do the two prov with Monica it's it's a completely different connection and a different way of operating on stage and you really are bouncing off each other and and the the communication you have to have in the trust that you have to have with the other person and when you're in an ensemble piece there's a different dynamic um, it's no greater or lesser thing it it is just a complete I mean you have that, and then that's another lovely experience as an improviser you get when you're in there with a big team and and you are giving and taking and standing back to let other people shine more or or being allowed to shine your self and your other team members step back in that whole different dynamic in the group and it's such a different dynamic when you go up from two to three to four to a big old too big multi jam um, and that's one of the great things about improvisation is having to adapt your well, instinctively adapt your performance style and your way of the way you're receiving everything and performing depending upon the number of people you're playing with and that adaptability is is such a buzz and highly addictive.
Back to New York and when it comes to the difference between ensembles and duos, Kornfeld and Andrews have been thinking about thinking.
In a show with a larger cast where you're not in every scene you know, I find myself kind of objectifying the show a little bit when I'm not in a scene I'm watching and I'm thinking a lot about these characters and I'm I'm I'm kind of thinking a little bit more with the director's mind and a little bit more the writer's mind and and kind of um, napping possible places to take ideas that are probably going to be rich in content and in the in the two person show you just can't, you never have a you never have a space to be able to take a bird's eye view of it you're just always in it so like for me I try to spend as much of the show is possible the more I I just try to believe what's really happening and try to try to treat the show as if it was me if I happen to be living this person's life, the easier it is to just kind of stay in the show and and not um, stress out too much. Rick, I don't want to stepping on your toes with this, I do think that we've talked a lot when shows don't go great.
Yes.
We picked apart choices that we made that maybe let it not go great and I will sometimes if we come up against like a fork in the road in a show um, I will rely on certain certain discoveries we've made together over time to guide me to what is probably a good choice.
But I think a lot of times too some, a lot of those lessons for me at least end up coming back to don't get ahead. You know I mean, like like I think about um, um, shows where in the middle of the show I think there's two kinds of quote un- quote kind of mid show realizations there's there's things personal to the character like I, like Louis might say something or I might do somthing that might make you discover something that's true about my character in my mind but that I didn't know before but that has been true for this character the whole time and I might not say it right away it might just be something might be something inconsequential might be something like a big deal like I have a crush on this person or whatever and I I think that kind of realization is really easy to carry and hold. Then there's a version of it that's kind of like "Oh this should happen later" or I want X to happen and that kind of thing is bad, huh, or it's not necessarily if it's going to happen naturally you could you just let it happen naturally because I think when I get ahead of myself um, that's what I end up making a choice that that in hind sight after the show feels kind of limp or it it kind of came off the bat wrong or just felt like I I had this vision of what it would be and it wasn't that.
No matter what when you're in a duo you're pretty much always on stage. A final word this episode on the inescapable amount of stage time two person improv gives us from David Pasquesi.
Right and I think there's two sides of tha,t you're always pretty much on, that's one of the problems I find with group work is when you're standing in the back you're so you're not participating and so it's harder to join is it even in your mind set because sometimes you can't help but all the sudden you're just an audience member that just happens to be very close to the actors um, and so to rejoin it is difficult so we don't have that problem because we're always we're always right there. One of the limitations is cast size and one of the benefits is cast size and um, we learned just by doing it that "oh, we can play it other people" and that's something that we enjoy doing we don't have to just be these two people we can and we don't have to just do two person scenes I mean there will be two humans but there can be multiple characters within that scene that we just play them all.
When you take a look at the show notes for this episode you'll see links to online shows and books from some of the participants you've heard. Whether it's watching a show or buying a book or an online series it's a really good time to support performers if you're able.
Next time… on The Improv Chronicle Podcast
Edits, playing multiple rolls and digging further into the feeling of just how special the phenomenon of a two person show is to both performers… performers reflect on what makes it work, and how you can too.
The improv chronicle podcast is produced and presented by me, Lloydie James Lloyd. Please subscribe and rate us on your favourite podcast app by going to ratethispodcast.com/improvchronicle If you have an idea for a possible episode go to - www.improvchronicle.com