Clowns are making a comeback, and their impact on the world of improv is undeniable. In this episode, Lloydie explores the resurgence of clowning and its influence on improvisation. He speaks with several improvisers who integrate clowning into their practice to understand the overlap, the differences, and the essence of clowning.

Guests:
Lee Kennedy – Clown and Middle Banana at Club Wormhole https://www.instagram.com/club_wormhole/

Andel Sudik – Improviser and Teacher https://www.yesandel.com/

Isaac Charles Kessler – Clown and Improviser https://www.instagram.com/isaackessler/

Host:
Lloydie James Lloyd

Podcast Theme:
Composed by Chris Stevens at Studio Dragonfly

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episode transcript

Every second improviser I know is being influenced by clowning

Lee Kennedy: So I think clowns are like a type of mushroom, because clowns, clowns go away and come back. And now we're at a time when the clowns are coming back.

Lloydie James Lloyd: This is the improv Chronicle. I'm Lloydie. At the moment, I'm reading an increasing number of blog posts and talking to increasing number of improvisers who want to talk about clown and how clowning has an impact on their improv. 15 years ago, when I first started improvising, this just didn't seem to be a thing. But now it seems like every second improviser I know is being influenced in some way by clown. So I decided to catch up with some improvisers who I know that do clowning to find out what the overlap is with improv, what the differences are, and also what they mean by clown.

Lee Kennedy: I'm Lee Kennedy, the clone. I am a clown that's been working in Nottingham for about seven or eight years. I started off doing improv, but actually was introduced to clown before that. I seen Spencer Joan being interviewed on a bus, and he was talking about all these, he said all these things about clown and goliath and all these words that I didn't even have an understanding for, that I was afterwards, how do Google and how do increasingly Google strange things? Because I wasn't getting the results I wanted. so always had this real interest in clone and I went from kind of pre pandemic being an improviser that was really interested in clown to afterwards being. Now I really think I'm a clown who sometimes does some improv. I'm the middle banana at Club Wormhole, which is Nottingham's alternative comedy cabaret, where we bring all the best, alternative comics, clowns and weirdos to Nottingham and do a, cabaret show every month that's usually very heavily themed. I'm part of the. I'm one of the gang and I'm kind of the most clowny clown within the group.

Andel Sudik: I'm ondial Sutik. I am an improviser and a teacher. I'm based in California and I also consider myself based in Chicago. and I, will be there teaching, intensives, this summer.

What does it mean to be a clown? What is clowning

Lloydie James Lloyd: What to you does it mean to be a clown? What is clowning?

Andel Sudik: It's such a funny question. there's someone who hosts a podcast where he's basically asked that question because it's kind of unanswerable, I think, in many respects, because there's so many different types of clown or schools of clown to me generally, like, what clown is to me is, connection with the audience.

Andel Sudik: A mix of sensitivity, and physicality. And more usually clown to me is more physicality than words and an acceptance of failure and a true acceptance of what is happening in the moment.

Lloydie James Lloyd: And this became an interesting phenomenon. Everybody who I spoke to about defining clown said it was a really tough thing to do.

Lee Kennedy: It's the problem with clowns, right? There is no definition. What do you say it is? I've spent the last two years, I've done a clone theory course with John Davison, which is 2 hours every week watching clowns from the last 150 years on videos and talking about it. And at the end of it, you don't come any closer to a definition. You just kind of go, well, it's kind of, you know, when you see it, but then you end up going, well, that's clown and that's clown. And that's clown.

Lee Kennedy: So what? So what do I mean by it's really hard to say? And you don't get any closer to a definition. I just think, I just know I am a clown and just am a clown. So, Whereas other people are like, well, I'm a comic or I'm a stand up or I'm a performer or an actor. And But it's what I like about cloud is it gives me the opportunity to be, okay, I'm going to do something that is more acting in it. I'm going to do something that is more planned and has higher tech in it. I'm going to do something that is more experimental and wild. And it just gives me the freedom to do a lot of that within my own definition of myself as a performer.

Isaac Kessler: Hey, everyone, my name is Isaac Charles Kessler. I'm a clown and improviser. Actor, not really actor. I'm not working in acting so much. The industry here in Canada, where I'm from is, terrible, for me, I should say. Anyways, not the point. I've been, improvising for 18 years. started my journey in physical theatre and clown, Oh my gosh, 13 years ago now. And that changed my life. So to me, clown is Well, no matter what happens, there's no fourth wall. There's a direct connection to the audience, at all times and to the space, clown. To do clown, to play in the world of clown, to me is

Isaac Kessler: To come from a place of pleasure and joy at all times. Of innocence, of vulnerability, of playfulness and, Ah, to always, to

00:05:00

Isaac Kessler: be completely present at all moments and to let the audience experience everything you're experiencing at every step of the way.

Lloydie James Lloyd: So I think I have an idea of what it is to be a clown now, at least roughly. So how does this differ from being an improviser? Lee Kennedy again, I think when you're.

Lee Kennedy: Doing improv, there's a lot more application of technique and there's a lot more thought through of, sorry, not more application technique, but more thinking about what it is you're trying to do and planning out your next steps. and we learn lots of technique to enable us to do that, whether that's yes and or if then, or, as we get more advanced using different techniques of drama and acting and character, but we're thinking through what we're doing. And as we develop more, we learn it kinesthetically, we learn how to do it with our bodies and we think less about it. But there's still that point where you're going, I will do press this button now because I know it will get this reaction. Clone, it feels to me, starts in the other way where you start off learning how to be interesting on stage. You don't go, you don't improv comes from, I'm going to do this and this will make me look interesting, funny, engaging, or whatever it is. Whereas clone feels to me like it starts from, I am going to be interesting and then I will do things with that interestingness on top of it.

Isaac Kessler: Definitely that, that presence and being open. I would say that with improvisation, there is still a fourth wall up, there's still a barrier between. And I'm just, I'm not saying all improvisers. I'm just saying in maybe traditional, improvisation, improv is this interesting world intersect of, you know, there's a stand up world where they're talking directly to the audience and we're connected, and improv is inside of that. We come out, we get a suggestion, you know. But I feel that most traditional improv, once you get that suggestion and once you go into the actual improvisational part, a fourth wall is put up, and that's fine. That's the art form. So the presence and the openness and vulnerability, I would imagine it's actually focused on your scene partner and your performers, your troupe, your ensemble. Whereas clown, when you have other clowns on stage, of course there is presence and communication, but there is a whole other world right in front of you, which is the audience that is a whole other bunch of scene partners, the whole world and a whole space to play in where that connection has to be there. I would also say that improvisation and clown, of course, they come from a place of play and game. I think most traditional improv is, focused on kind, of a surface level version of play and game. and clown asks of the performer to come from a deeper, more raw, the place where the belly laughs come from, rather than the laughs of, the mind and the intelligence.

How do you think all these clowns will affect improv

Lloydie James Lloyd: Next, how will all these clowns impact improv? So we have all these clowns adding this new perspective into improv. So how do we think it's going to affect the scene? Andyil sudyk ooh.

Andel Sudik: I think like anything, it'll just expand it, I think, hopefully it'll expand it to different places and different styles. And also what is possible in improvisation, because I think that's like a cool aspect of clown is like there's a little bit more of that, like mischief and openness inside of the play. and so I think that, and it'll also refresh because I feel like any sort of the, like is sketch comedy or stand up or improv. Like has this kind of like, life. And then anything that can put more life into it, I think is really exciting. And I think that's kind of why improvisers are also sometimes drawn to clown, because it's in line with what we do, but it's this little extra, it's this flavour and this challenge that then you get to like put inside yourself and see what that does to what you already do, which I think is fun.

Lee Kennedy: So to my improv specifically, it's really brought a, level of comfort on stage where I just, I'm not really worried about. I'm not really worried about being on stage. And I started improv to be okay with being anxious in front of people and learning that that was going to be okay anyway. And clone just really took that to the next level of, I know

00:10:00

Lee Kennedy: I can just be in front of an audience and I can be okay with it. for a few years, what I was bringing from clone into improv was being a moron. playing games, playing meta games, selling out my partners quite a lot, selling out myself for a joke and being okay being the stupidest looking person on stage.

Isaac Kessler: and so when it comes to clown for improvisers, it's, the world's smallest mask, as Jacques Lecoq put it, strips away all the masks that we put up over ourselves, and it leaves the performer on stage with this beautiful, childlike innocence. And we see everything that they are feeling in the moment. And that's what we, the audience, want to feel when we watch someone do clown. We want to see them feel. We want to see ourselves in them and to feel what it feels like again, to be free and to be like a child, like somebody who's looking at the world with new eyes and just interested in everything going on. Yeah. so, yeah, any improviser who's thinking, what's this clown thing? I would say, get into a class, it'll open up a completely new world, and I think it'll open up a new world, starting in yourself, in ourselves, and tapping into vulnerability, and it'll begin you on a journey of finding who you are as an authentic performer on stage and what makes you beautiful. Because the most important thing is to strive for beauty before comedy. Whereas improvisation goes for comedy first. Not every school, but a lot of them look for comedy because it's an improvisational comedy. but in this world, you go for beauty first, and you find the beauty, and then the comedy comes from there. and, ah, I think it's the most important skill set, and I think it will, and I believe it for myself. It will make improv so much fun, and it will make life so much fun and so much more playful. It'll open up the way we see the world and how we interact with fellow humans. Improv does that. Improv helps a lot, you know? Yes. And it's beautiful. But clown is a whole nother deeper level that'll open up understanding into things. a long winded way of saying, take a class, I guess.

Lloydie James Lloyd: I think you might have sold me, though. You might have sold me on it.

Andel Sudik: It gives me another way to look at it from the inside and the outside, I think. So, like, one of its, like, kind of that analytical thing, I think for me, too, like, a lot of many of the clown courses that I've taken have an emphasis on you alone doing something, which is my nightmare. I love collaborative improvisation. I love to be on stage with someone. And so I think hitting that fear centre has been really helpful to be like, okay, you're there, you're alive, keep going. and also opens up, I do think it opens up your sensitivity to the audience, without, like, it putting too much emphasis on what they're giving you. It does kind of, bring them in as another partner. really clearly and obviously, as improv.

Lloydie James Lloyd: Develops in this post pandemic, world. Any influence in it is fascinating to me. And I must admit I am kind of sold on doing a bit of clown to see what it does for me and my improv. Back to Lee, who has a grand unified theory about clown.

Lee Kennedy: So I think clowns are like a type of mushroom, because clowns, clowns go away and come back. And now we're at a time when the clowns are coming back. Vigil vans just won Britain's got Talent. The biggest show in New York at the minute is Julian Masala's. Ha, ha, ha ha. Yeah, there is a resurgence of clowns happening now. Now, when I grew up, there was a lot more clowns around, and there's not been clowns around for a long time. So clowns go away and they come back. But when they come back, they take bits of theatre. They take bits of performance in theatre that are around. So in the 1950s, they moved into vaudeville and music hall because that's where performance was happening, that's where people are going. Similarly, now clowns are coming into improv because that's where people are and that's where they can go and, perform in front of people. An indie, it's a more indie art form that, yeah, people can get into. And as clowns come in they’re like mushrooms, they take things apart and they rearrange them and they introduce new ideas from other art forms and say, why don't you take lip syncing from drag and take, technique from, sorry, ah, production technique from theatre and mix these things together

Lee Kennedy: and make something more.

Lloydie James Lloyd: The Improv Chronicle is produced and hosted by me, Lloydie James Lloydie. There's also a weekly improv Chronicle newsletter. You, you can also donate to help keep this podcast and newsletter going, and, read transcripts of previous episodes. All of those things are available to do at the website improvchronicle.com.