Go to a lot of improv theatre websites and alongside the classes in improv, you’ll often see classes in sketch comedy too. Why are improv and sketch such regular bedfellows and how can being an improviser help you be a better sketch writer?

This show features:

Shantira Jackson
Find out more about Shantira here: https://www.shantira.com

Armando Diaz
Take a sketch or improv class online at Armando's theatre here: https://magnettheater.com/

Susan Harrison
Check out the improvised podcast Susan does with Gemma Arrowsmith - "Hayley and Ruth:Two Stars" here: https://www.comedy.co.uk/podcasts/hayley_ruth_two_stars/ 
Susanyeeha on Instagram and @SueHarrison123 on Twitter 

Episode transcript:
This… is the Improv Chronicle podcast. I'm Lloydie.

Lloydie: Go to a lot of improv theatre websites and alongside the classes and improv, you'll often see classes in sketch comedy as well. Why are improv and sketch such regular bedfellows. When it comes to being a sketch writer, why is improv so often on the resume? 

I wanted to know how these two worlds intersect and what we can take from improvised comedy and using sketch comedy. I reached out to a number of great sketch writers who also do some really great improv to get a sense of how the worlds of sketch comedy and improv relate.

Lloydie: This is Shantira Jackson. 

{Audience cheers}

Shantira: Can I get a suggestion about anything at all or a question? 

Shantira Jackson: My name is Shantira Jackson. I am an improviser, writer, comedian based in Los Angeles. I improvise with my group, 3Peat, all over the country, back when we did those things. And I'm a writer for The Amber Ruffin Show, right now. So, those are the things that I'm up to.

Lloydie: I know you teach improv to sketch. 

Shantira: Yes. 

Lloydie: Now, how does improv help sketch? Because on the surface of it, one is spontaneous discovering creation, whereas the other is something you have deliberately written. So, where is the bridge?

Shantira: I think that one of the things that's really important about improv to sketch is that sketch is something you've improvised in your head; you just haven't performed it yet. So, you sat down and thought about these characters and you made up what they had to say. And a lot of times, it's very singular, it's very individual. 

But improv to sketch, you get to play with all your friends, you get to have a lot of fun, and you're not so much in your head. You're actually just actively acting things out. 

And sometimes, it's terrible. You might have an improv scene and you're like, “I'm glad that was improv. We never want to see it again.” Or you see something that is gold; something that if you sat down by yourself, you wouldn't have come up with. 

So, when you have those moments, you go, “Hey, that was so great. I think I want to be these characters again.” And you can improvise with those characters again. And if it's really good, you might want to write it. If it's so good that when you play these people over and over and over again, that it's so hit, that's usually when you get something that turns into a sketch; something that is repeatable. And if you've learned their voices, especially through improv, then you can keep doing it. So, I think that's how they connect. 

People think sketch isn’t connected to improv, but if you sit down to write characters that do not exist, you are improvising. 

Lloydie: From L.A. to New York, where Armando Diaz set up and runs The Magnet Theatre. He's been teaching improv and sketch for 30 years and thinks the two have similar aims.

Armando Diaz: Well, I mean, you don't have to do either to do the other. I mean, like, you never have to write a sketch to do improv. You never have to do improv to write sketches. Like, there are many people who are writers that don't ever get up on stage. 

But I do think it's very useful. So, I think the intersect, in the sense that all the same goals are there. You're trying to kind of attack the relationship in the scene. And whether you do that in the moment, and spontaneously, or you do that in the quiet of your room, sitting at your desk, trying to do it in your head, you're still trying to do that thing. But one's kind of more solitary.

Susan Harrison: What's in my handbag? Veseline or Vaseline. And it was actually given to me by my mom, who's my biggest influence.

Lloydie: Susan Harrison is an improviser, character comedian, writer and actor based in London, UK. I've been watching her online sketches during lockdown and loving them. And she thinks the improv principle of “Yes, And” lives in the sketch process as well.

Susan: All the work that I do in different areas, I think, comes from the same root; which is playing and exploring and Yes, Anding. And I think with scripted stuff, you can use the principle of sound as well. Like with the sketches that I make on my own, I am basically Yes, Anding myself, which sounds strange, but by running with an idea and heightening it, yeah, I am sort of Yes, Anding something and not being too scared to start. 

I also write with Lucy Trodd, who's an improviser as well with Showstoppers. And we've found that our improv ethos has really massively helped our writing as well, because, yeah, in terms of generating ideas, improvise so helpful and in terms of like being open to each other's ideas and building on each other's ideas, all those same principles apply, even though it's scripted. 

So, yeah, I think there's a lot of links there. And just this real key, core value of like forgiving yourself, the first draft, as it were. You know, when you write, you want to be able to forgive yourself if it comes out badly at first, because you know that you'll get there eventually. And I think it's that same – Yeah, that's a similar process with improv that you you're not judging your ideas.

Lloydie: So, sure, there are connections between improv and sketch, but what are the comedic things in a sketch that differ from improv? Hear Shantira. 

Shantira: I think it would be the game. Because the scripted version means that the game has already been set out for you. And then in the improvised version, the game is more discovered. So, you'll be like, oh, I think that when it's scripted that the set up will be like, this is where we're going, or the set up will be kind of like a surprise. Something like, we want you to think it's going this way, but it's going another way. So, you kind of get to bait and switch or you know exactly what's happening in the scripted, but for the improvised, we usually find it. So, it might take a little bit longer. 

I think you get to the juicy stuff in an improv scene a little bit later that you do in a scripted scene, because it takes a little bit for everybody to get on the same page, as opposed to when it's scripted, I know what page I'm on before I even start.

Lloydie: Armando thinks there's something behavioural that separates improv and sketch.

Armando: Well, I feel like there are two parts to your brain, because improv is very animalistic. It really requires for you to kind of just use your instincts more and your emotions more and be in the moment and be reactive. And when you're writing, it's more contemplative. So, you kind of turn inside. 

So, sometimes, like writers have trouble improvising because they tend to be in their head. And that's where you create. And improvisers can have trouble being writers because they're used to instant gratification. And so, writers have to keep on making pass after pass, rewriting, editing their sketches and still be able to kind of sustain the enthusiasm for it. 

So, in a way, like writing kind of requires a bit more determination that you're going to have more faith in your idea and you're not going to like give up on it just because you don't have somebody just going, “ha ha ha” and encouraging you. 

Susan: With improv, as we know, there's no plan and it is completely like expansive, bottomless discovery, which is really free and exciting and open. And I'd say with sketch, you do have that discovery and I do improvise some of my dialogue in sorts of sketches and stuff, but there's always a plan going into it, even if that plan is really vague, “Like I'm going to do this sort of character.” 

So, I'd say, yeah, the plan or no plan is a big difference. And also, the editing; like with improv, we do edit, don't we? But it is live editing; in the moment. Yeah, and also responding to what the audience; how the audience are reacting. Whereas in a sketch, I've got as long as I need to edit, although I do edit stuff really quickly. 

But yeah, I'd say those are some key – Yeah, the key differences. Yeah, just the whether you've got parameters or not. And in improv, the lovely thing, as we know, is that you can have a show that's completely open. And with the sketch, there's usually some points to hit.

Lloydie: Susan makes a good point about the agency having improv versus sketch, which resonates with Shantira as well. 

Susan: As an improviser, if I think something works, I could just try it out. If you're just writing sketch, you have to depend on someone else to execute your vision. And no matter what, people will never do exactly what you want. You know what I mean? So, I think that I have more control over what I think a line should be like when I improvise myself.

Lloydie: So, how does being an improviser help you when you come to write sketches? Armando Diaz again.

Armando: I think it's good, in terms of like you get lots of reps to learn about character and scenes and game, which is important. And it can be a good idea-generating source. 

Typically, you can't really, like, just take an improvised scene and transcribe it and turn it into a sketch. You have to basically rewrite it and kind of punch it up a lot. But you can come up with some pretty fantastic ideas and characters, in the moment, when you're improvising. 

Lloydie: Susan thinks the attitude improv has given her to her work is really carried through to how she approaches working on sketches.

Susan: It's really interesting, actually, because I was thinking about this recently and I'm just so grateful to improv for allowing me to not be too precious by anything that I make. And I think that has really helped, just this principle of holding on tightly, but letting go lightly, as we say in improv. I think that really applies or has really applied to the stuff that I make online as well; like the sketch stuff. 

Because sometimes I'll deliberately sort of feel more than I need. And then when I'm editing it, I don't feel this like preciousness about cutting it. And so, that's one thing that I think has really helped. 

The other thing, I think, that's been really helpful is just the sense of immediacy that improv gives you. I'm quite an impatient person, anyway, so I just love getting on with stuff. And I love, like with improv that there's no gatekeepers. You know, when you're on stage, if you've got an idea, you'd just do it, and in the spirit of collaboration, obviously. But you don't have to like, wait for a commissioning editor or whatever to give you the go ahead. 

And again, that's really helped with the sketches that I make as well. It's this idea of if I see something interesting or something that I think is interesting that's happened in the news or in like entertainment, I can just immediately get on with it and get an idea out. So, yeah, I think it's helped massively.

Lloydie: I love sketch. And for me, somehow, by the nature of it being written, there are fewer surprises than maybe I get in improv. As I got talking to my guests, so I wondered, what were the sketches that they'd seen that they just wouldn't expect to work, but that did?

Shantira: I think it's David S. Pumpkins. Have you seen that? 

Lloydie: Yes, I have. On Saturday Night Live.

Shantira: Yes. And I think that that also is an example of what I was just talking about, where that is a performance thing. Tom Hanks did that. And it's like he has the likability that when we see him doing something out of character, we get points for that being funny. 

It’s completely nonsensical and ridiculous, which you can only get away with, I think, a lot of times when people respect you. So, I think that it's really surprising how successful it was, but I also think that it has a lot to do with the person who played that part and how the audience, the whole world, received that particular character from Tom Hanks. I think if, like Tom Cruise did it, we'd be like, “What the fuck?” You know what I mean? 

It's because of how much we like him, that we enjoy him being silly. Like, if it was like a bad person, I don't think we would like it as much. 

So, I really do think that that is a really good example of a sketch that if you just read the dialogue, it's not funny. It's funny because of the performance and who got to perform it.

Lloydie: That's so true. And I love that sketch so much.

Shantira: It's so funny. But it's so funny because it's Tom Hanks.

Lloydie: Yeah. 

Armando: I directed a show with Andy Daley. He was a performer on Mad TV. And we did a bunch of his sketches, and these were sketches that were rejected by Mad TV; like was not allowed to actually put them on TV. And he wanted to just do a show of those of all his sketches to kind of prove like, “Hey, these are funny.” 

I remember one sketch. It was a set change joke where in between sketches, like you got to switch over. The previous scene ended and then the stagehands just started setting up the most elaborate dinner table, candelabra and every kind of like really long table, food, cups, and it was just like a set change that was just like taking way too long. And then the scene just ended with like one line and then there was a blackout. And then they had to take it all apart. 

And as a director, I said to Andy, I was just like, “Hey, man, it's taken them like three minutes to set up this whole set change. Like, can we cut it in half or whatever?” And he was like, “Well, I see what you're saying, but I really want to do it.” And I was like, “Okay, we'll do it.” And every night, I was just like on the edge of my seat, just like, “Oh, this is taking forever.” But every night, they'd say the line; blackout. People would roar. 

Susan: One that I did, which I did really quickly, in about two minutes, was about Mary Wollstonecraft, seeing her statue for the first time, because there was a statue in North London made in her honour. And I just did it sort of I thought, “That might be fun, just to do her standing in heaven, talking to God about it.” And I didn't really give it much thought; like I improvised it, because I knew a bit about her, anyway. I sort of looked at the facts and improvised it. 

And anyway, yeah, on Twitter, it really sort of blew up on Twitter, which I really didn't expect because it was completely unexpected. And I thought it was just quite sort of simple, but I guess simple things do go down well, sometimes. Obviously, simple is good, but we sort of forget that, don’t we, as people who make stuff. 

So, that was really unexpected, I guess, because there was no preparation. I didn't get like a fancy backdrop or I didn't put on loads of makeup or do any sort of special effects. It was like really basic. So, that was unexpected. 

But it was just the character's point of view, I guess – Well, the historical person's point of view. So, yeah, which I guess is quite improvy. 

Lloydie: So, what would Shantira say to an improviser thinking of doing sketch?

Shantira: One of the things that I would really like to get out is that you should do both. I think that even if you don't think you're good at the other, they both help each other so much. Being a wonderful sketch writer helps to be a better improviser and being a wonderful improviser helps you be a better sketch writer. 

And I think that if you lack in either of the skills, trying to get a little bit better at the other one that you're not doing so hard at will really help you become the most well-rounded writer and performer, even if you don't want to be a performer. 

I think that people get really set in their ways, thinking, well, like, “I just improvise.” If it's like, “Well, okay, but like nobody's ever had too many skills.” It's not like this, “Oh, well, if I learn how to do something else that's going to make me a bad artist.” Like that's not how it works. 

But like it would be better, I think you would have more fun as a writer, and more fun as a performer, if you just dip your toe in those things; even if it's just once.

Lloydie: And Susan has some encouraging words for those making their journey into sketch from improv.

Susan: An encouraging thing, I think, to think about for those people. If there are people who are sort of nervous about writing or sort of putting it off or whatever, I think it's really lovely to remember that as improvisers, we do have this ability to build on each other's ideas. And that's a really precious thing to have. 

And I certainly feel that with my writing partner, Lucy, that if we didn't have that, it would take us way longer to explore ideas. And yeah, I just think that's a really nice thing for improvisers to remember that they've got that in their armoury, if they want to use it. 

Next time… on The Improv Chronicle Podcast.

As the vaccine rollouts happen around the world, announcements are beginning to be made about when theatres might be able to open later in the year. Next episode: Hear from improvisers who, after a year of doing no live performance, are considering not going back to the art form. We find out why. 

The Improv Chronicle podcast is produced and hosted by me Lloydie James Lloyd. You can help the podcast right now. Subscribe and rate on your favourite podcast app.

Find out more about previous episodes, including transcripts and our website improvchronicle.com