Yeah, But That's Not Improv Is It?
Is the medium of improv too often confused with the genre of improv? Surely improv isn’t one thing in the same way that theatre isn’t one thing. The genre is not the medium. This episode explores how we make the distinction between improv and styles of improv.
Guests:
Jim Fishwick (Jetpack Theatre / ITS / New Zealand Improv Festival - Insta: @fimjishwick)
Hannah Platts (Tiny Stories / Rhymes Against Humanity / Date Night)
Will Naameh (MC Hammersmith / Spontaneous Players / Shamilton / Baby Wants Candy)
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Book referenced in podcast - Improvise Freely by Patti Styles:
https://www.pattistiles.com/english
Host / Producer:
Lloydie James Lloyd
Podcast Theme:
Composed by Chris Stevens at Studio Dragonfly
Transcript:
Some improvisers conflate the medium of improv with the genre of improv
Jim: A lot of the limitations or issues that I see coming from mid to late career improvisers stem from people conflating the medium of improv with the genre of improv.
Lloydie: This is the Improv Chronicle. I'm Lloydie. When I was in Sydney earlier this year, I met with improviser Jim Fishwick. They're the general manager of Jetpack Theatre, who do immersive, interactive, improvised work. a teacher with Improv Theatre, Sydney, and currently the artistic co director of the New Zealand Improv Festival. So what do they mean when they say that some improvisers are conflating the medium of improv with the genre of improv?
Jim: If you look at something like musical theater, there was a genre of Broadway musicals that was dominant from, I don't know, the 20s, through to the certain extent, still today. But then you get people like Sondheim who are doing things that are still in the medium of musical theater, but are an entirely different genre. Same thing with comic books. You've got your traditional detective comics sort of things going, that are what people think of when you get comic books. But then there's Alison Beckdell, or Neil Gaiman, or Alan Moore, people who are doing things that are in the same medium, but tackling an entirely different genre. So, to my mind, to come back to improv, people, get taught a certain style of improv, and they see that as being the right way to improvise, or the only way to improvise, when really what they're seeing is one genre of improvisation. And it tends to be like the improv comedy genre. sort of shorter scenes, faster jokes. But it can be any sort of permutation, of different elements. But the fact that, people see that they're the only thing comes from seeing that style or that genre of improv being the same thing as the medium, that the mechanics of accepting and making offers of moving a story or a scene or a game forward are the same thing as the style of. As the whole medium of improv. and so by disconnecting those two things and understanding what is the medium of improv more broadly, what are the different styles of improv within that? it frees you up and removes, self imposed limitations on what you do.
Lloydie: Do you think some of that is a function of improv being a lesser known, lesser, I suppose, developed, art, form compared to traditional theater in inverted commas or movies?
Jim: No, I, think it's a function of a lot of improv companies were started by one person who learnt it somewhere else and then moved over and started a school, teaching what they were taught. And then they teach a lot of people. And then one of those people goes like, I don't like this. I'm going to set up my own school in a different style. And then that school just teaches that style. Me and my friend Luke Rimmelswan have this ongoing thing about a lot of improv teaching is done in like, the apprentice model, where there is one, to use the traditional terminology, master loaded word. and a bunch of apprentices who learn to improvise in the style of the master. And then you get, out of that into the journeyman phase where you go and learn other things and expand your skill set from there. so people are taught to improvise like their teacher. Ah. And that's the other thing that leads to it, is that you sort of stay within your school and you, see the shows that happen at your school and you see the teachers at your school improvise. And so you learn to improvise, like then. And you get a sort of Darwinian evolution, over the course of that happening for, a couple of years.
Lloydie: Hi. You alright?
Hannah: How are you doing? I'm good.
Lloydie: I got all the way here. I hit all the traffic lights.
Hannah: There are many.
Lloydie: Someone with a wide experience in both improv and scripted theatre is my friend Hannah Platts, who I play with in rhymes against humanity, the improvised musical. So I went to see them in Leicester to get their take on this.
Hannah: I think it's quite compelling when you get really good at a certain thing to then start thinking, well, this is the height of this art form. Do you know what I mean? Like, I'm really good at puns. So this is what improv is. But that's an example. or this is improv. And that other thing is not really improv. I've definitely heard people say, like, oh, well, that's not really improv. Like, oh, well, certain games in short form, that's not improv. And it's like, well, you're making it up, so it is. but, I think sometimes it's quite nice to feel like I've conquered this thing. I'm on top of this mountain. So this is what it means to me. Whereas actually, when I'm doing workshops, I say to people, like, people are afraid of improv because they think, oh, my God, how can I make things up as I go along? And really, we're all improvising all the time. Like, when you have a conversation with someone, you don't have a script.
Jim: Wait, what?
Hannah: Oh, no, I've gone off script, Lloyd. So really, I think that, ah, it's much more freeing to embrace all the different types of what improv can be, which actually is one of the things that drew me to improv in the first place. because I come from an acting background, and there's very much a sense. Of. Having, a casting type. And how you're perceived by certain casting directors can just. Can affect how you're cast, obviously. Whereas an improv, I can play anything. I can be a dog, I can be a chair. I can be like the romantic lead. And it doesn't matter what you look like. You can be any gender, you can be any anything. So I think that flexibility, we should also apply to how we improv, like the genre of improv, because there's a lot of fun to be had out there.
Lloydie: Do you think people's fear, then, is holding them back from the fun? Because I think for some people, I've managed to conquer spontaneity. Don't tell me there's another kind of spontaneity. M it's not my kind of spontaneity.
Hannah: Yeah, it's like, well, I've done that now. I've ticked that off my to do list. I'm really good at coming in with a punchline. So that's what improv is to me now. And I don't need to do anything else because I might not be perfect at it, and that's terrifying. But the whole point of improv is that it's not perfect when it's not perfect is when it's the most fun. so I think it might be a bit of fear, actually, but I think conquering that fear opens up so many doorways to finding the little magical moments of weirdness that come with trying something out.
You play in a variety of different styles of improv show
Lloydie: Do you think this applies to audiences as well? Because I know people that have said to me, for example, when flying at the Edinburgh Fringe, oh, I've seen improv. I don't like it. And I'm like, you haven't seen this show. It could have been something totally different that you saw.
Hannah: And literally even, a show by the same group on a different day could be completely different. I think that's a sell that we have to try and make to audiences that aren't just improv audiences is that it really is different every time. And different shows can be so different. Our show is like an improvised musical. and I think that appeals to people who like musicals and people who like improv comedy. And it's very different to trying to think of a different genre now. the improvised crime scene thing, do you know what I mean? Like, oh, an improvised murder mystery, it's very different, but it's still really fun. And I think convincing audiences that improv doesn't just mean improv. One thing is actually a way to get more people to experience the wonders of our art, form.
Lloydie: And actually, one thing. Jim was saying that even within scripted musicals, there were the traditional musicals of the 20s through to the. Even today. But then also, Stephen Sondheim has done something totally different. And I know from doing improvised musicals and improvised Sonteim musicals, which is another thing that I do, they are two very, very different shows.
Hannah: Yeah. And even the people that you have in the show on that day can make it feel completely different, can't it?
Will: Hello, everybody. My real name is Will. Name, my stage name is MC Hammersmith. I mean, you know me as Will Lloydie, and we have done for the past ten years or so, so I guess will would be nice. you've never called me anything else, so consistency works for me.
Lloydie: I'm not going to call you MC.
Will: Yeah. when people call me MC, if they come and it tends to be backstage at gigs, and they go, MC, MC, I'm like, ah, it's another comedian who I've never told my real name to, or I have, and they've forgotten. Like, we've only met once and you don't know who I am, that's absolutely fine. But they're too embarrassed to say, what's your actual name? Which, I totally respect. It's very funny, though.
Lloydie: You play in a variety of different styles of improv show as well, don't you?
Will: Yes. So the two main strands of things I do, the aforementioned rapping, is when I, under the name MC Hammersmith, do short form improvised hip hop comedy. so I do that in solo shows and at comedy clubs around the country. It's a solo endeavor. I take suggestions from the crowd and then I improvise. Hip hop comedy tracks live on stage. so it could be random words, random objects, stories from the audience, that sort of thing. And then short form style. I just turn them into a rap after the suggestions are taken. I also do some long form hip hop improv with Shambleton and Baby wants candy at the Edinburgh Fringe. that bleeds into the other sort of improv. I do. the main group I do it with is called Spontaneous Potter. And that is an improvised Harry Potter show for adults, and that's long form narrative improv. So we just take a title of a Harry Potter book that doesn't exist, Harry Potter and the something, and we turn that into an, hour and 45 minutes, Harry Potter comedy play live on stage with musical accompaniments. And you know this full well because you've done that show with us many times yourself, Lloydy.
Lloydie: Yeah, it's always a joy to step into as well. I always have the most fun because, I mean, I know Harry Potter, but I don't know Harry Potter like you guys.
Will: So, yeah, it's nice to announce to the crowd like he's seen the first film, we think. and it's nice to play up to that ignorance.
Do you get frustrated when people say improv is one thing
Lloydie: So do you get frustrated when people go, oh, improv is this one thing. Like, that's not how you do improv.
Lloydie: This is improv.
Will: Yeah.
Lloydie: Because there is an amount of that.
Will: Yeah. I'm already getting into shit flinging, and I absolutely shouldn't say what's in my head. So I'm going to try and paper it under lots of degrees of anonymity. I have seen various posters at, the Edinburgh Fringe Festival. I'm trying not to use the actual quote because they'll know who I'm referring to. And I don't want to cause beef where I don't want to cause it, because they're all lovely people, really. But it's when shows go, this is real improv, or, this is actual improv, or this is the resemblance to what real improv has to be, or something like that. There are punchier quotes that exist, and I'm trying to be very diplomatic, but that does irk, the improv nerd in me, it's fair to say, because improv is so codified and weird and traditional amongst improv theaters anyway, right? Like, all this business of the dream, the Harold and this is the way you should do it, and it has to last this long. And all the conventions that make a paying audience go, what on earth is going on? And sort of mystifies it for them and detaches them from just enjoying it. It's already enough of a cult and a pyramid scheme in the culture, like, as it is. And, yeah, just codifying it with weird traditions and gatekeepers saying it has to be like, this is, fundamentally backwards for both the people that perform it and the audience that want to see it and understand it. I remember when I was 21, I took my at the time, my partner, to see a Harold night, ah, at UCB in New York. We were there for ten days in New York and I said, let's go see what's on at UCB. And it was a Harold. And I didn't realize that, I don't think, till we sat down, I went, oh, I've not actually explained to her what a Harold is. I wonder if she's going to enjoy it. And the lights went down, show happened and it was very good. And at the end I went, what do you think? And what did you think? And any opinions on it? And she went, I think I enjoyed it because I laughed a lot, but I had no idea what was going on and it was very confusing and that was a real bugbear for me. I totally get that because how can you enjoy something when there are a hundred question marks floating above? Yeah, the more mystery and codification around it, the worse it is, I reckon.
Jim: There's a danger of conflating improv with a particular genre
Lloydie: So what's a healthy way out of improvisers conflating improv, the medium with a particular improv genre? Back to Jim, there isn't one.
Jim: it's about the way that concepts are taught. I think it's, teachers being able to teach in a way that says this is one way of approaching things. it's about, teaching a tools based approach to skills that, if you want to have a fast paced show, do sweep edits and tag edits because they have a sort of like punchline rhythm to them. They end a scene, we start another one. if you want to have a slower show, you can do crossfade edits or you can do organic edits or all these different things. but what happens is that teachers will say, like, okay, here's how you edit. one person runs across the stage and that's the end of the scene, and then we start another scene. And that's a very different thing.
Lloydie: And it's not just improvisers who conflict. Of course, many of us have experienced audiences doing the same, as Hannah explains.
Hannah: Yeah, I think it's interesting because, I've had multiple times, like after a show, I'm in a two prov called Date Night, which is an improvised history show. And we'll come off stage and someone will come up to us and go, oh, I hate improv, but I like that. That was good. I'm like, what do you mean by you hate improv? Like, you saw one show by one group like five years ago, and you were like, this is rubbish. All of improv is rubbish. And then suddenly they see something that's different and they're like, oh, actually, that's fine. So I think we are in danger of being clumped together too much. Whereas actually, it's like, what is improv? It's such an umbrella term.
Lloydie: it is. And if you've seen, I don't know, a bunch of Armandos, and you've been told that that's improv and that's not a form you gel with, or if you've seen, I don't know, a bunch of improvised musicals, and you're like, oh, that's a bit jazz handsy for me. That's not all improv, is it?
Hannah: No, exactly. That's such a small facet of what improv can be. And I think people can be too quick to close their minds off to that. Then they're like, oh, well, that's not for me. I don't like that kind of Cambridge footlight. See, humor. So improv in its entirety is not for me. Whereas, actually, improv can be so many things. It can be, like, little character driven, quite intimate pieces, or it can be like, big, massive, showstopper stuff, or it can be so many things. And that's where the joy of it lies.
Will: I went to the Nottingham, Imprint Festival, the Robin Hood Festival. Don't know if you've heard of it.
Lloydie: yeah, I think I know one of the organizers.
Will: I was there. There was a group from somewhere in Europe, and their sort of English as a second language, like fluency, wasn't 100%. So they made the creative decision to do their show in gibberish. Do you know the truth I'm talking about?
Lloydie: Yes. that was, the Estonian group.
Will: Estonia, that was it, yeah.
Lloydie: Impro Theater Imperium.
Will: That's it, yeah. they show in gibberish, and if it weren't for the language barrier, they wouldn't have developed that form. And I was sat there going, a show in gibberish. I thought that would be dog shit. And it was great. But then I realized, especially this conversation, like, oh, I've had those moments as an improviser going, nah, that's not what improvise. That's going to be terrible. You need to speak at least an entire, like, half an hour in gibberish. It's going to be really difficult. I've seen loads of stuff, that has surprised me, like, in small ways since. I mean, do you know Ibujardini, the Italian troop?
Lloydie: Nice.
Will: well, they came to the fringe about 1011 years ago, and they, again were like, we are native Italian speakers. I think they felt their English as a second language fluency, again, wasn't up to 100%. They were, like, feeling less confident they could improvise in English for a month. So they went, we'll do an improvised silent film. So they erected a huge gauze, like, in front of the stage. You know the one I'm talking about, right?
Lloydie: I do know the one you're talking about, yes.
Will: and, yeah, it, was incredible. And they had this ragtime pianist who was awesome. And in order to do, like, the physical stunts you would see in a silent film, they used their hands for a lot of them. So two fingers walking across their palm, that would represent the camera zooming out and then running off cliff tops and stuff. And I've never seen anything like that before. Never seen it. And I went, you can do this. You can make things up by substituting your body for just your hands. And it still works. And the crowd are on board. And it's that inventiveness that comes from smashing right up against the wall of the opinion that this can't be done. Or, like, we have to figure out a workaround. Or just because improv is done traditionally in this country, two people standing in an eleven and talking to each other about stuff, rather than anything physical or musical or creative or surprising, it doesn't mean you can't do it. I think if you think, well, improv can't be done with XYZ, I think that's the reason to try and do it, because you'll probably invent, or at least discover or add a new tool to your belt, which is wonderfully, freeing and enjoyable. I mean, the best improv shows I've done have felt like they are almost falling apart, but they are so wonderful and funny and delightful because you found something new, right? That's what the best improv is. So maybe taking that analogy from being in a fun improv scene to the format of a show where even the format itself is surprising and weird and unusual and new to you and to the audience, that's where the joy of it probably lies for me.
Lloydie: How else do we work at this? Here's Jim again.
Jim: this extends to having an awareness of people's different playstyles, that you get some slower players who need more time to think and then respond, or that are more physical. You get faster players who are able to come up with the punchline quickly, value all of them equally. because the breadth of that is going to make your show better and your ensemble better. a lot of the idea of sort of tools, not rules, is explored in Patty Styles'book improvise freely, which I highly recommend, not just because I edited it. I think it's quite good, if I do say so myself. I get no money from it being sold, I just get joy that people are reading it.
Lloydie: And I've put a link to the book in the show notes for this episode. You can get the world of Improv delivered to your inbox every week when you subscribe to the Improv Chronicle newsletter. Just go to improvchronicle.com for more. And if you like what we're doing here, consider following us on your podcast subscriber and leaving a rating and review.
Jim: Those make a huge difference and help.
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Jim: It would be great to have you.
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